I was going to post, but then TeaElle came along, snatched my post right up off of my computer, and put it up under her name!
Come back here, you post thief, you!
:shaking fist:
But you do realise that each child is not taken on their individual merits with the selective schools system? They’re taken on how they performed on the day of the test and how their school views them. If you’ve got a kid who is not a teacher pleaser and who doesn’t do exams well, it doesn’t matter what their IQ test shows, they won’t get a place. Selective schools are not readily available to highly gifted and above kids. In our state they don’t exist at all.
As it stands, homeschooling isn’t necessarily what ‘suits’ P the E or auliya’s son. It’s what we have ended up with after the school system has failed both kids quite spectacularly.
That’s another reason philosphr that many families are going to homeschooling. There’s a lot of people with kids who test as gifted or who have kids with special needs or both and who cannot deal with the system any longer.
You also said that he did fine the first few weeks and then you said that after two weeks he was not doing well.
Your own words speak for themselves.
I don’t dislike your personally. But as long as you claim to have a doctorate and continue to misspell your profession, I will remain skeptical about anything you say.
Your question is a good question. Your input as an “educater”(sic) is worth nothing in my opinion.
**
I agree with you. Unfortunately, school is dull, un-stimulating and clinical in its insistance on rote memorization and regurgitation on demand of dates, names places . . . I remember when I was in high school that it seemed to be deemed more important that I know the date on which the Revolutionary War started than the reasons behind it.
For example, I hated history until I started reading books about it on my own. Science held no wonders until I discovered Carl Sagan. Were I not a voracious reader, I feel that I’d be miserably ill-educated. School failed me, or I failed it-- I don’t know.
It’s sad that a teacher with passion for their subject, who can make it come alive for their students, is a rarity. An involved, interesting teacher can change a student’s world. Learning is fun, but unfortunately, school tends to kill that curious spark in children instead of cultivating it.
That said, I do see the importance of some of it. It prepares people for being unhappy about what they’re doing, but having the responsibility to see it through. Don’t underestimate the value of this.
Life is full of all sorts of this unpleasantness, and people should be prepared to deal with it. They should know, for example, how to listen to a boring person who has information which they might need later, because they may end up in a board meeting, doing the same.
They should learn how the responsibility of returning to the same day-in-day-out grind when they’d much rather be doing something else. Employers don’t like it when you take a day off to play, and often, you can’t just change tasks because you’re bored.
They should learn how do deal with rude, or mean peers, because eventually, they’ll have to deal with the same kinds of co-workers.
They should learn to deal with a mean teacher, or one who is unfair, because, after all, they may have a boss someday who is the same way. They should learn the values of submission to authority (even against their better judgement) and of diplomacy.
Most importantly, they should learn that you cannot depend on your situation in life to make you happy. Happiness is something that you must have within you, because you can’t always expect life to have a happy ending. It sets people up for dissapointment. They should learn to find happiness within themselves, to be able to find satisfaction in their lives that doesn’t depend on what their job offers.
You know, I agree with you in spirit, but the pragmatist in me says that, most likely,“rebellion” won’t get them very far.
I’m one of the lucky few. I have a job which I love, one which stimulates me intellectually, allows me to express my creativity, and gives me the deep satisfaction that I’m contributing to the world by helping to preserve its history. I’m actually happy to go to work in the morning.
However, there’s no way I could have this job if it weren’t for my husband. He makes enough to support us, allowing me to work in a very low-paying, but wonderful job. If I weren’t married to him, I’d have to leave and find more lucrative employment.
It’s a romantic notion, that everyone should be able to find enriching, fulfilling work that not only pays the bills, but makes them happy, too. Rare is the person who finds their dream job and can make a good living doing it. Life is cruel.
I wish them success in this endeavor, I really do, but that old pragmatist in me insists that the majority of people are going to end up working in a job they don’t like just to pay the bills.
Yeah, maybe one of them will write a symphony, or The Great American Novel, but it’s not likely. They can’t count on it. It’s like the old Arab poverb: “Trust in God, but tie your camel.” You have to hope for the best, but be prepared for the worst.
The majority of people end up working as wage slaves because the majority of people have public school educations and the resultant lack of personal ambition that tends to go along. The majority of people are wage slaves because that’s what they’ve been taught to expect for themselves.
And I’m still not sure why you think that going to some standard school is the only way to learn how to get along when things don’t go your way. Once again, we return to the wholly unproven supposition that homeschooled children are spoiled, coddled little princes and princesses who never have to do anything that they don’t want to, who never have to suck it up and go along with what they’re told, who never have to go anywhere that they don’t want to, deal with people who bore or annoy them, never have to handle bullies or mean kids, never have any interaction that isn’t roses, sunshine and love.
Maybe if their parents are engaging in the most irresponsible, loosey-goosey version of “unschooling” and never let them leave the house for any reason, but give them everything they want upon demand, those ideas might hold true. But that model isn’t anything close to the norm. That’s not how homeschooling works for the absolute vast majority of families, and the presumption that homeschooled kids are crippled in such a fashion is simply outmoded and not supported by the facts, the most paramount being that there are hundreds of thousands of very successful homeschool alumni who are functioning very well despite never being indoctrinated in the school systems’ methodologies of creating good little citizen/drones.
I’m really sorry Primaflora, and I certainly hope you won’t consider me merely “nit-picking” - nor do I want to take away from the experiences of the kids/parents that perhaps don’t have such facilities offered or readily available to them, or as in your State, NOT available.
Firstly, I wish to point out (gently and non-aggressively, of course), they are certainly NOT just taken on how they performed on the day of the test. After taking the test, if they were considered to have passed that test, they were then required to attend before a panel of 4 interviewers a couple of weeks later. During that interview, they were also required to present and discuss personal projects or achievements that they had done, apart from their required schoolwork.
The teachers had absolutely no input or knowledge as to how each child went in the exam or in the personal interview that ensued. The whole process as to whether they were accepted or not, went for months and months, about 7 months in fact, until anyone knew of the outcome.
As far as how their school viewed them - THAT certainly had no bearing on my daughter’s placement into the gifted education system! My daughter actually was incredibly socially inept at primary school, both by her peers (because she was considered a total dork - you know, the “school dweeb”, the nerd etc etc ) and also by the teaching staff - merely because she had no self-confidence to relate to anyone. The kids bullied the shit out of her because she was “different” - hence she had absolutely NO self-confidence to relate to them NOR the teachers. She was NO teacher’s pet, I can assure you!
The teachers actually said she needed to develop “social skills” even though she was so adept at her studies. I must add, since being accepted into the Programme, because she was associating with kids with similar skills and schooling backgrounds, she now has a lovely group of friends - they, too, all experienced the same experiences that she did. I have spoken to many within her group of friends, and their parents, and they all said that they have never been happier with themselves, nor their schooling, since being lucky enough to get through not just an exam, or teacher’s pet syndrome. Those kids got there by their own merits, and not just a one-off merit on one particular day … but by their consistency and many achievements.
They have all supported each other tremendously throughout their years in High School (Senior School)… But, bringing things back to topic - they wouldn’t have experienced the bond, support and friendship had they been home-schooled.
I understand the plights of those in places that aren’t offered/given the opportunity to be involved in such a system, and obviously home-schooling/private tutoring is a wonderful thing to meet an individual student’s needs, but please don’t think that the system that my daughter went through is corrupt, or because she merely did well on “one day”. She and those like her, deserve a little more praise than that! Likewise the kids that excel through what is available in other States. And once again, I wish all the very best for auliya’s son. As parents, we can only try and do what will be the very best for our kids and give them the best start out in life that we can.
In closing, I sincerely hope I haven’t offended/angered you or auliya (or anyone else, for that matter - that’s certainly not my intent!)… I know every case is totally independent of the next. I was merely saying that in my situation the public schooling system allowed my daughter to grow and blossom and I hope the same for every other child out there, however their education is offered to them.
My son did k-8 at a US public school, and is now doing his first year of high school being home schooled. We decided to give it a try for a year to see how it works out.
It took some initial adjustment, but seems to be working out quite well.
We have a liason with the school district with whom we meet on a monthly basis, and who collects samples of his work and a copy of the schedule he’s followed over the past month. The liason also makes certain that the curiculum is well-rounded and satisfies the California standards.
In addition, the program that we’re involved with offers external classes, some at a local community college, and it’s a rule in our house that my son take at least one of these classes every semester.
In addition to the outside classes, my son also meets with his friends after school to play and mess about, so he does get regular socializing activity.
The pros:
He’s able to get his work done in about four focused hours per day, though he often works one to two more hours if he’s making good progress on what he’s doing. Physical education is not one of those four hours, though we have an hour of that every day as well.
He has more flexibility on the subjects he can study in addition to the basics.
He gets a lot of parental attention, and he can get more comprehensive help when he needs it, as we’re not trying to meet the needs of 30 other kids as well.
Learning is more integrated into daily living, so it can seem less like a job.
The cons:
We tend to spend a lot of money out of pocket for supplies for science experiments and such. It seems worthwhile though, and there are a lot of resources available that don’t cost.
The program we’re in, though associated with the local education facilities, is not state accredited. As a result, his college career will most likely begin with a community college, though there are shortcuts available.
The challenges:
As parents, we have to work on keeping a cohesive and comprehensive curriculum available.
It takes a big chunk of parental time.
Tea - this strikes me as a very dark, grimm outlook on the pubic school institution as a whole. Why so pessimistic? The conclusions you draw…are, well, not accurate. I went to public school, then on to advanced graduate study. I’m an instructor at my undergrad alma mater and not a wage slave as you seem to think I should have become, or anyone who is pubblic schooled.
There many people in this country who have made good of their public educations, personally I think it has to do with the person themselves. Are they driven enough to make something for themself?
There is nothing wrong with a parent wanting to point a child in the right direction, but sooner or later the choice lay in the hands of the individual. I do not think public schooling turns us all into Huxlian savages as you may think…ultimately the choice is that of the individual, and I’ll say it again, getting through the teenage formative years, is what prepares us all for adult hood. Unfortunatley, some have to grow up too soon, and miss integral parts of a childhood. Of course the choices we individually make throughout our lifetimes move and shape what our lives become.
In my opinion, the reason the majority of people end up working as wage slaves is because of a lack of other options. There simply aren’t enough creative, enjoyable jobs for everyone out there. Hell, there aren’t enough good-paying jobs for everyone.
Can someone please explain “socialization” to me?
Mee-ow! Generalize much, TeaElle? As someone who went to public schools from kindergarten all the way through grad school, I have to take exception to your statement. I’m very glad that homeschooling works for a lot of kids and parents. But public schools also work for a lot of kids and parents. Public school kids do become artists, doctors, social workers, writers, academics, etc. And plenty of public school kids become “wage slaves,” who nonetheless pursue creative activities on their time off. It’s all very well to say that everyone should find a fulfulling and meaningful job, but folks also have to pay the rent, procure health insurance, provide for their kids, etc. When creative ambition comes up against the need to pay the electric bill, creative ambition doesn’t always win.
I just want to point out that entreprenuers must fill out tons of crappy paperwork as well as kiss a lot of butt in order to attract financing and a customer base, and inventors must do a lot of tedious tweaking, testing, and record-keeping. The most creative professions out there still involve many dull, rote tasks. Musician? Playing scales, or recording the same 8-bar passage for the umpteenth time. Writer? Editing, editing, editing some more, or perhaps researching, researching, combing through some deadly dull newspaper archives in the name of research once more.
Not to mention all the rote tasks that are part of daily life outside the workplace: balancing a checkbook, filing taxes, reading a lease before signing. Everyone needs to be able to handle jobs that are not fun or creative, but are just downright necessary.
Anyway my opinion, based on a rather small number of cases I’ve observed IRL: homeschooling works for some families, doesn’t with others. Probably wouldn’t work for a majority of families today, but may work better than anything else for some kids. My husband and I dream of homeschooling for just a year or two, around age 11, and being able to travel extensively during that time.
Homeschooling can do wonders for a child. It can also do horrible things. Two cases of homeschooled people I know:
Samantha: She’s incredibly kind, strong, opinionated, is sociable, and very intelligent.
Renee: Incredibly immature, has the intellect of a sack of hammers, doesn’t socialize at all if it isn’t needed.
Your question is a good one. Essentially, socialization is the state of interacting smoothly with other human beings.
Frankly, I don’t think it is all it’s cracked up to be. I am opposed to running rough shod over other people’s feelings, but I am also opposed to always putting someone else’s expectations ahead of my own.
Perhaps we should be teaching children emotional intelligence as opposed to socialization skills.
Lissa wrote:
Thank you for the compliments.
I’ll talk to them about doing projects they don’t prefer after they finish unloading the dishwasher or shoveling the snow or raking the leaves, cleaning their rooms or doing their math (which, believe me, they hate). At our house, there are plenty of dull, rote tasks to go around. 
My own capacity to deal with dull tasks was honed much more successfully by the working world than by school. Generally, once the relationship between hard work and hot food is established, it becomes an ingrained part of one’s makeup. For now, let 'em be kids.
I don’t think anyone was suggesting that your daughter didn’t deserve her place in what I asume to be the selective school system in NSW (or SA or Vic), or that the systems were “corrupt”. My point was, that if for some reason she hadn’t performed on the day of the test, none of the ongoing assessment criteria would have been applied and she would have been left to flounder with all of her mentioned-by-you problems.
Then perhaps homeschooloing might have appeared more appealing to you - or perhaps not.
Certainly in NSW the selection criteria DOES involve the primary school’s recommendations for inclusion in the selective school, it is not something they would necessarily discuss with parents of course. It also involves intensive coaching and tutoring (not that I am suggesting your daughter was involved in this) as kids compete for a restricted resource. And then if they do get accepted, there are kids who are still so far out on the normal distribution wrt to IQ or who have various LDs that are not well scaffolded in a selective environment - and for these kids home schooling (which I might add is NOT private tutoring) is often a much better alternative.
As this thread is really not about the merits of the Selective School system in some states of Australia it might be a good time to apologise for the highjack 
sorry all non Aussie Dopers