The proximity of Heaven and Hell.

Great Debates
1

Putting the dispute of any theology and the existence of God aside, I have a logical question about the proximity of Heaven and Hell.

Heaven is geared up to be a glorious place of love and eternal happiness. No sadness, no weeping, just joy.

Hell is a foul place of eternal pain and torment.

Obviously, you can see one from the other. For instance, the parable of Abraham and Lazarus and the thirsty rich man tells. (Luke 16:19-31). Even if you could not see it, you would know it is there.

So if you have a close relative or loved one who is not with you in Heaven, how can you enjoy the gifts that await you there?

How are you suppose to bask in the warmth of God’s love with compete strangers knowing (or God forbid, seeing) your dear old dad is burning in a lake of fire?

This thought has been afflicting me for a while now and I cannot seem to locate an answer that requires little to no faith.

2

Heck, what if you’re one of those stalkers whose idea of joy is being close to someone who (here on Earth at least) can’t stand you?

3

The usual (Or at least, Catholic, since that is the dogma I have the most experience with.) response is, I believe, that in Heaven, all earthly cares fall away and the spirit simply rejoices in the full splendour of God. There is no space for anything but love of the Divine.

4

[QUOTE=Jokershadow]
Obviously, you can see one from the other.
[/QUOTE]

According to the Koran (can’t find the verse right now but it might be Sura, The Rangers.) the righteous are rewarded with seats under shade trees with a view of hell and say, “There but for the grace of God…”

5

[QUOTE=Will Repair]
According to the Koran (can’t find the verse right now but it might be Sura, The Rangers.) the righteous are rewarded with seats under shade trees with a view of hell and say, “There but for the grace of God…”
[/QUOTE]

Wouldn’t that get kinda old after a few thousand years? I mean, there’s only so much “tsk tsk” one can do before it starts to get hellishly dull.

I have relatives who can do it for decades at a stretch, no sweat, but I thought we were talking about eternity.

6

I don’t see any hope of a factual answer to this, so let’s move it to Great Debates.

samclem General Questions Moderator

7

[QUOTE=Jokershadow]
Obviously, you can see one from the other. For instance, the parable of Abraham and Lazarus and the thirsty rich man tells. (Luke 16:19-31). Even if you could not see it, you would know it is there.

[/QUOTE]

To pick a nit… that was “Abraham’s Bosom”, sometimes called Paradise, not heaven. (Heaven, in Christian theology, was closed to man by Adam’s sin. The righteous dead-- those justified by faith-- went to paradise, awaiting heaven.

Still, you do have a point. I do not pretend to be a theologian, but my opinion is this: God is a God of love, but He’s also a God of justice. There’s a time to love (hey, sounds as if it would be a good song), and a time for justice. The “window” for a person to get saved-- forgiven of sins, and therefore righteous in God’s sight-- is during the person’s lifetime. That’s the time that love is operational. After that, it’s judgement time.

God does not demand any price for this salvation, and it’s open to all-- anyone can get saved, though not everyone chooses to do so. It’s not restricted to those of a certain gender, born in a particular country, skin color, and so on. (Leaving out the predestination vs. free will here.)

God demonstrates various characteristics throughout the scope of His dealings with man: His power, His love, His holiness, and-- in this case-- His justice. Those who chose to be separated from God are there, for all eternity, as a demonstration of their choice, along with Satan and his rebellious angels. (Hell was created for them, not for mankind)

Do I understand why it’s done that way? No. 'Course, if God did everything according to my advice, pizza wouldn’t be fattening and there would be no kidney stones. Still, I serve God because, among other things, loving Him and my fellow man is a good way to live. I do not pretend to understand why God does certain things His way, though.

8

[QUOTE=Captain Jinks]
To pick a nit… that was “Abraham’s Bosom”, sometimes called Paradise, not heaven. (Heaven, in Christian theology, was closed to man by Adam’s sin. The righteous dead-- those justified by faith-- went to paradise, awaiting heaven.

Still, you do have a point. I do not pretend to be a theologian, but my opinion is this: God is a God of love, but He’s also a God of justice. There’s a time to love (hey, sounds as if it would be a good song), and a time for justice. The “window” for a person to get saved-- forgiven of sins, and therefore righteous in God’s sight-- is during the person’s lifetime. That’s the time that love is operational. After that, it’s judgement time.

God does not demand any price for this salvation, and it’s open to all-- anyone can get saved, though not everyone chooses to do so. It’s not restricted to those of a certain gender, born in a particular country, skin color, and so on. (Leaving out the predestination vs. free will here.)

God demonstrates various characteristics throughout the scope of His dealings with man: His power, His love, His holiness, and-- in this case-- His justice. Those who chose to be separated from God are there, for all eternity, as a demonstration of their choice, along with Satan and his rebellious angels. (Hell was created for them, not for mankind)

Do I understand why it’s done that way? No. 'Course, if God did everything according to my advice, pizza wouldn’t be fattening and there would be no kidney stones. Still, I serve God because, among other things, loving Him and my fellow man is a good way to live. I do not pretend to understand why God does certain things His way, though.
[/QUOTE]
Right, and while I may have objections to all of that, it’d all be beside the point: the question is now how everyone ends up in their respective final positions, but instead how do those in heaven deal with the knowledge that there are people who got locked into hell.

Do they weep for their lost brethren?

Do they cheer that those damned wicked people are getting the suffering they deserve?

Do they languish in smug superiority at their inherent coolness, as exemplified by their miserable inferiors?

Do they not care whatsoever, as they take tokes of His Divine Presence?

??

9

I’ve seen believers say, in not so many words, that you get your mind scrubbed and become a happy idiot, and never worry about your friends in hell.

I suppose you keep repeating to yourself “it’s a good life, it’s a good life, don’t send me to the cornfield I mean hell.”

10

[QUOTE=Jokershadow]
This thought has been afflicting me for a while now and I cannot seem to locate an answer that requires little to no faith.
[/QUOTE]
I don’t understand. If you have little or no faith, then why is this bothering you?

11

[QUOTE=Bryan Ekers]
Wouldn’t that get kinda old after a few thousand years? I mean, there’s only so much “tsk tsk” one can do before it starts to get hellishly dull.

[/QUOTE]

You obviously are forgetting 72 taut and sinewy variables in this equation.

12

I’m trying to remember the end of Dante’s Purgatorio. I think at the end of Purgatory the dead were supposed to drink from, then cross a river of forgetfulness before entering heaven. No drinkee, no entry.

13

[QUOTE=Lobohan]
You obviously are forgetting 72 taut and sinewy variables in this equation.
[/QUOTE]

Well, that’ll hold me for the first week or so. Then what?

14

[QUOTE=Will Repair]
According to the Koran (can’t find the verse right now but it might be Sura, The Rangers.) the righteous are rewarded with seats under shade trees with a view of hell and say, “There but for the grace of God…”
[/QUOTE]

My Muslim theologic knowlege is hellishly pathetic (no pun intended). But from what I heard don’t Muslims also not believe in eternal damnation? Meaning ti woulld give this answer a slightly different twist (your friends coming up and saying “now that that’s over”) Meaning you’ll go through the punishment rigamarol for a good long time but not forever. Again though I can’t recall where I heard this and could EASILY be wrong.

[QUOTE=InvisibleWombat]
I don’t understand. If you have little or no faith, then why is this bothering you?
[/QUOTE]

Because some of us get worried over not knowing trivial things that have no real bearing on our lives. :stuck_out_tongue:

Anyway I just read a short play called No Exit by Jean-Paul Sartre, and it was fascinating as a view of hell. It says nothing about the proximity, but the knowledge of heaven is there and at least answers one view. As a quick dirty synopsis is you are put in a room (Second Empire sitting room?) with other people and everyone is trying to get out. Eventually one will figure out HOW to get out(i.e. the main character needs to convince the character Inez he’s not a coward, which will never happen because she’s a sadistic hateful bitch) but because of various personality conflicts, it never will happen.

Then there’s also the Divine Comedy view, which basically is the lower you are in hell the closer you are to heaven (though purgatory is in between), I can’t remember if they stated a reason for this but assumedly being “so close yet so far” to a “good place” would be quite tortorous.

As for a hard “heaven is here hell is here” answer. As far as I know, I don’t think the bible is clear enough to start planning your inter-planar real estate biz yet.

[QUOTE=Yllaria]
I’m trying to remember the end of Dante’s Purgatorio. I think at the end of Purgatory the dead were supposed to drink from, then cross a river of forgetfulness before entering heaven. No drinkee, no entry.
[/QUOTE]

Ah yes forgot about that. It was probably the river Lethe, as Dante also had the river Styx (actually it hink he had all the Greek rivers). Drinking it erases your memory, I believe something else (blood?) restores it according to the Odyssey, but we’re getting into religion-melding territory then.

15

[QUOTE=Bryan Ekers]
Well, that’ll hold me for the first week or so. Then what?
[/QUOTE]
Quitcher whining. The only taut and sinewy things the christians get are harp strings.

16

[QUOTE=Jragon]

Ah yes forgot about that. It was probably the river Lethe, as Dante also had the river Styx (actually it hink he had all the Greek rivers). Drinking it erases your memory, I believe something else (blood?) restores it according to the Odyssey, but we’re getting into religion-melding territory then.
[/QUOTE]
Yes, Dante moved Lethe to the top of the mountain of Purgatory, but I don’t think drinking it erased the memory of your sins. It erased the shame of committing them because they had expunged their guilt.

17

If you believe The Great Divorce, there are bus trips from Hell to Heaven.
Not long ago I ran across the following, by Catholic historian Paul Johnson, which I found interesting and which may be relevant:

18

[QUOTE=Jragon]
But from what I heard don’t Muslims also not believe in eternal damnation?
[/QUOTE]

Nope.

Matter of contention as far as I believe. Somehow I can’t reconcile a loving God with eternal damnation; annihilation seems merciful. But not my judgment call.

Here’s a site of conventional Muslim beliefs.

19

[QUOTE=InvisibleWombat]
I don’t understand. If you have little or no faith, then why is this bothering you?
[/QUOTE]
That is a very good question. Why should a non-believer be concerned about what others believe? Well, I think it could provide insight about ethics and/or morals of others. For instance, if someone is of the opinion that only those that are saved will enter Heaven and that once in Heaven their life will be eternal joy without worries or cares, why would they be willing to go there in the first place, knowing that their loved ones might not be able to accompany them? Not only that, but that their minds will “fixed” so that they will no longer care or worry about the fates of those loved ones? It all boils down to this question: Would you be willing to enter Heaven without regret, if that meant leaving all those whom you love and care about, and all memories and cares of them, behind?

20

[QUOTE=InvisibleWombat]
I don’t understand. If you have little or no faith, then why is this bothering you?
[/QUOTE]

Oh I have faith or it wouldnt even cross my mind. I guess what I meant was a answer to this that dosnt just fall back on “because”.
I am no great Theologian I was just pondering.

I too have heard of the brain scrubbing but then why all the joy about seeing those who has passed before in Heaven?

I know all answers will be moot when I die but I am not THAT curious just yet.