The reason for the terrorists attacks on the US.

There’s 1 group of people that can’t seem to work or play well with others. They have a common thread worldwide and it isn’t democracy. It involves the deliberate attack of civilians for purposes of terror. They have completely subverted a religion to their own purposes of death and distruction. When not busy killing Jews, Christians, Hindus and anybody Western they subject their own group to the severest forms of religious dogma. And then they fight to see who’s version of dogma gets to rule.

Everybody on this board involved with: drugs, homosexuality, infidelity, abortion, music, or blasphemy would find themselves severely beaten or dead if they were under the rule of this group.
And this same group of people was vehemently against Saddam. Where were all the brave warriors and suicide murderers when it cam time to save Kuwait (and Iraq) from Hussein? They weren’t sitting in their mud huts knitting prayer books. They were training to kill and conquer.

“If we just leave them alone I’m sure they will go away”. That was said more than once by a lot of Hitler’s victims.

What one group is that, Magiver?

Just as an interesting aside, I believe Usama Bin Ladin offered his services to the government of Saudi Arabia in re-mobilizing the mujahidin to defend the Kingdom and expel the apostate Iraqis from Kuwait. The fact that they refused, and opted for the aid of the United States and the West instead, seems to have left him somewhat embittered (to say the very least).

It’s been a while since I read up on the details of this event, so if any other posters would like to enlighten me on the subject I’d greatly appreciate it.

Reeder:

Let’s be crystal clear here. Are you saying that the US itself is to blame for the 9/11 attack on the WTC? I ask this in all honesty, as I can’t tell from your OP whether this is what you propose.

Don’t equivocate. Le us hear your version of who is responsible for the attack.

You are absolutely correct. Bin Laden sited the defiling of holy Saudi land (by having US troops stationed there) as one of the reasons for attacking the United States.

20/20 hind sight would have put all the troops in Kuwait. Different topic. I would finish by saying the Saudi’s chose correctly. Bin Laden would have been severly trounced on a wide open battle field. He couldn’t pull his little terrorist BS because Saddam would have just wiped out towns to get to him.

Some excellent points have been made here this evening.

Perhaps terrorists DO like to kill. I mean, given a choice between being a subject of a crappy little country, being beaten and tortured occasionally by the secret police, being poor, and so on… and running around with a rifle and a bandanna over my head… well, the choice seems pretty clear.

I’m astonished that no one has brought up the major bugaboo between us and the Arab world, though – our support of Israel.

Historically, the Arab world has been a mishmash of nation-states. They didn’t even bother with borders, for the most part, until the British imposed them on them during their last big spate of colonialism. And you’ll notice the British got the hell out when they could; it took a guy like Lawrence Of Arabia to deal with the Arabs. And you’ll also notice that Larry did it on the ARABS’ terms.

They fought a lot. Hell, they still fight a lot. Rivalry and blood feuds are part of the culture. This does not change the fact that, ethnically, they are Arabs, and just because Ahmed and Abdul are kicking the shit out of each other, that doesn’t mean either will be particularly happy to see Uncle Sam show up and break up the fight.

Shodan makes a good point, though. The Kuwaitis were deliriously happy to see us after Saddam marched in there. But I’m getting ahead of myself.

The UN whipped Israel up as an act of legislative fiat right after WWII. They decided to put it right in the middle of all these Arabs, though. And there, all the hassles began.

The Palestinians, who were there before the kibbutzes got put in, weren’t happy. Admittedly, if the Israelis HADN’T moved in, they’d still be there, the poor country cousins of the Arab world, still being looked down upon and occasionally beat up by the Saudis, the Jordanians, and so forth. (It’s worth noting that the Saudis have enough room and enough cash to simply CREATE New Palestine, right there in Saudi territory. For all that they bleed for the Palestinians, they sure don’t seem real anxious to do that.)

…but the Jews moved in, and the Arabs promptly attacked them. In force. And the Jews promptly sent them home with a collective assful of buckshot (try any search engine, using the terms SIX DAY WAR, YOM KIPPUR WAR, and so on).

Now, this bugs the shit out of the Arabs to this day. NO WAY could a buncha ragtag (insert Jewish plural slur of your choice here) have beat up the Faithful of several countries. Plainly, it must be due to the backing of the evil United States and the western-controlled UN!

…and this is a line that continues to the present day. P.J. O’Rourke tells a story about how a Beirut taxi driver lectured him on American foreign policy – “You know, most of the taxes you pay go to Israel, eighty percent.”

Why not? The smarter Arab leaders finally figured out that Israel wasn’t going to go anywhere, and made it a matter of national policy to hate Israel… and, by proxy, those evil Western infidels who buy them all those jets and bombs and provide the supports that are obviously the only thing keeping Israel from blowing up and burning to ashes, spontaneously, from its own rotten evil insidiousness.

George Orwell made an excellent point: if you want to distract your people from their troubles or from the issues, create someone or something for them to HATE. Hitler made an art out of it.

And today, the leaders of several Middle Eastern nations have done it so well, it cost Anwar Sadat his life, and has spawned a new generation of crazy homicidal maniacs. After all, when you have a young man who’s got very little to lose… and has been raised to hate Israel and the United States… and, hell, SOME folks over there even offer to give your family MONEY if you blow yourself up especially STYLISHLY… well… why NOT?

Kind of like homicidal Goth posers, you know?

Yes, I’m being facetious, but not by much. Only over the past couple of years has Saudi Arabia cooled it a bit about how evil and rotten us Americans are for propping up evil, rotten Israel… the fact that most of the 9/11 hijackers were Saudi (as is Bin Laden), I suspect, has rather disturbed the royal family, and while they find us useful as a bugaboo for their own people, they aren’t anxious to alienate us. We run their oil industry, for one thing.

The Syrians, though, from what I understand, are utterly rabid about it, and the Jordanians aren’t much milder.

THIS is what cost a bunkerful of American marines their lives in Beirut. “Americans = EVIL!” It’s taken for granted over there, for the most part. Nearly every Arab I have ever met has been kind of surprised, after getting to know some Americans, to discover that we aren’t a berserk, Jew-worshipping merry band of pornographers, rapists, and so forth who routinely hold car chases and shootouts with our own police…

…but y’know what? They can’t all come over here and chat with us, or attend barbecues with us.

All they have is their own state-run media, and word of mouth. And they have had a LONG time to stew in their hatreds. And there are any number of people who know quite well that a judicious combination of religion… hatred… and fervor… can equal a lot of political power, right quickly. I very much suspect that THIS is what Osama Bin Laden is really all about. Why be a successful international businessman… when you could, with a little time and effort, maybe own something… MORE?

Of course they made the right decision in turning down Osama/Usama. I mean if I remember correctly the end result of his “work” in Somalia was that their civil war actually got worse and that he is responsible for the deaths of hundreds of thousand of Somalis. Of course it was a good advertising campaign for him, he must have got alot of “buyers” for his product so why would Osama care?

You made a very long story to say that Arabs have a morbid hate of the US due to ONLY the beggining of Israel… you should know better.

The US has supported time and again despots in the region… helping wars to weaken them up. The US deposed what was described in a book as “a kind of Thomas Jefferson of Iran”. Then they openly and financially held up Israel with a multi billion dollar annuall aid.

So yes the US stirred the hornets nest more than 50 years ago and kept doing it for several decades… the general populace only noticed when 9/11 came along but seems to be in denial about it. After all how could the champion of democracy support horrid despots and assassinations ?!

BTW you quote above is valid for the current Bush distraction tactics too…

The Arab leaders and Bin Ladin arent correct thou... I wont suggest they have the right for payback... but those are the reasons that make them do it. To say they are only rabid drooling dogs means the US will never defeat them.

Know thy enemy…

I don’t know if ‘freedom’ and ‘permissiveness’ can be seperated like that.

Of course they can. Permissiveness in our society wasn’t brought about by the Govt. The freedom that politicians refer to, I assume, stems from our Declaration of Independence, Constitution, Bill of Rights, etc. Sure, these freedoms allow societal permissiveness to flourish, and our political and social arenas are linked, but when I hear a Govt. official talking about freedom, I assume they are talking about our form of democracy, not the sexual revolution, or rap music, etc.

No, not rosy, but it would set the stage to avoid these ‘blunders’ as you like to call them, in the future.

The US allways and desperately wanted to have bases in the region. It has nothing to do with Kuwait, it’s a nice excuse though.

Ummm… not quite the case… but close. There are some remarkably worldly and well educated indiginous peoples in the MENA region - and I’m sure that they view their extemist fanatical countrymen with justifiable disdain - so it’s a disservice to assert that ALL citizens with the MENA region are equally uneducated and disenfranchised.

But that being said, yes your post Wang Ka was a beauty - no doubts. I daresay it took you a fair old while to write too! And it was sufficiently well written that I enjoyed reading all the tway through - albeit with the awareness that you made one or two broad brushstrokes.

Nonetheless, something worth noting is the very nature of terror, and what it means, and what it does to the human psyche.

If someone was to read this thread, and moreover, if they were some freak on the planet who HADN’T ever heard about September 11, then they might be excused for thinking that an entire nation had declared war on the USA on that dreadful day. But that isn’t the case, really, is it? In the cold hard light of day, the honest, and very sad truth is that but a mere handful of mesmerised fanatics were able to pull off arguably the greatest military attack in history - in the narrow context of manpower used compared to yield obtained.

Now, please my lovely American friends, don’t for a moment start to believe that I reckon that September 11 was a military operation, let alone a justifiable one. All I’m saying here is that in pure tactical terms, considering the amazingly small number of people involved, compared to the extraordinary events which unfolded, September 11 was an incredible example of lethal planning and execution.

But you know something? 9/11 was also a bit like a killer worldwide virus - insofar as it only ever gets to hit once while the initial defences don’t exist. After the initial onslaught, the defences change, and often, the defences change to offensive footing - which is ultimately what we’re seeing nowadays.

Still, we have to consider what terror does to us, here in the Western World. And for that matter, what it does to the innocent civilians of Israel too I guess. At the very least, it paralyses us - like a Kangaroo staring into the headlights of an oncoming 18 wheeler - that is, death approaches or seems imminent and yet we still look on transfixed.

Ultimately, the long term solution, it seems to me, is to undermine the true reasons for why certain regions on this planet enable fertile soils for terrorism to manifest itself. This requires a really concerted effort by those of us in the Western World to permanently do away with the inequities of this world, to raise the living standards of those less fortunate than us, and to raise their education standards and their civil institutions. It’s a long haul - no doubts about that.

Where do you get “Terrorism started in 1991” from the statement that Osama bin Laden caused 9/11 because he was angry that US troops set foot in Saudi Arabia?

If you would like to respond to what has been posted, feel free. If you would like to make up things from nowhere and respond to that, expect to be called on it.

Again, one or more of us has no idea what you are talking about.

Are you claiming that ObL attacked the World Trade Center because we don’t support the UN? The first time he did it was long before George Bush was President. Do you have any idea what the terrorists are angry about?

Driving the Iraqis out of Kuwait was the subject of a UN resolution, which was voted on and passed. What exactly is “undemocratic” about that? And the subsequent war of 1991 was the basis for al-Queda’s attacks on America.

And what exactly do you mean by “democratic”? You seem to be claiming that the actions of a freely elected President and both houses of Congress are less “democratic” than the UN. And this is why the Marines were attacked in Lebanon.

In short, what the hell are you talking about? Do you even know?

Regards,
Shodan

America is to blame for everything. All Americans deserve to die. Just ask any European.

Because Canada is not a great power on the world stage. If Canada was a super power, it could be assured that it’s policies - be they either action or the choice not to take action - would sooner or later irritate some group that is willing to kill civilians to get their way.

The US is a target for Bin Laden because the US supports Israel and because it is a powerful nation that is not an Islamic state. He could care less if the US is a democracy or a dictatorship. As long as it does not fit into his view of the way the world should be, the US will be a target. As far as Bin Laden is concerned, the most powerful nations on the planet should be Islamic states. US changes in Mid-east policy may move it up or down the priority list, but won’t change its target status unless it becomes an Islamic state that fits his vision of what an Islamic state should be.

Exactly. Totalitarians hate anyone who is not of their variety of totalitarianism. Look at liberals and conservatives in the USA for an example of this.

Bla bla bla.

  1. In light of the recent car bombing in Iraq, it doesn’t appear that terrorists value the UN any more than we do.

  2. According to this USA today poll (admittedly, probably not the most accurate but whatever), Bush seems to have strong support. Seems to me that by any accepted definition of ‘democracy’, Bush is doing what he’s supposed to be doing. Or do you only accept democracy when it supports you political views?

  3. How can the UN be ‘democratic’ when a significant number of its members represent states where democracy does not exist?

That is not true! Osama had no aliance with Saddam whatsoever. Iraq was a secular state which was not acceptable for Osama at all.
Any connections between these two guys is fabricated!

Events leading up to Al-Qaeda’s declaration of war against USA:

Soviets invade Afghanistan in 1979

Mujahideen resistance becomes a magnet for thousands of Islamic youth, who all go to fight for Afghanistan against USSR.

Bin Laden rises as a leader for the resistance, forming his own ‘mini-army’ and profits off the fighting.

The US enters this situation when it begins to send money and supplies to the Mujahideen to fight the Soviets. In addition members of the CIA were sent to train the Mujahideen, including Bin Laden in ways of combat.

The Soviets pull out of Afghanistan after ‘Bin Laden’ & friends help defeat them. This gives him a big head thinking he can defeat the USSR he can defeat any nation. He retained all of his islamic contacts formed in Afghanistan and moved back to Saudi Arabia. No doubt at this time he formed his plans with his other contacts to evolve Al-Qaeda beyond just a fighting force into a region wide Islamic movement.

Saddam invades Kuwait. Bin Laden takes it upon himself to push the Saudi’s to attack Iraq. He wants to use his base of fighters to do the fighting from Saudi Arabia. Instead the Saudi’s allow US troops to come over instead and station themselves in Saudi Arabia and go to war against Iraq.

This was the turning point. His anger was based on several key points which Bin Laden himself has stated:

  1. Allowing ‘infidels’ and basically in his eyes ‘unclean’, non-islamic’s to base their troops on holy Islamic lands.

  2. US involving itself in what he viewed as basically a Middle East problem. In other words sticking our nose into his business.

Already at this time Bin Laden thought of himself as becoming a future leader of the Middle East. He wanted to use his own fighters and established network to force extreme fundamentalist islam on other nations in the area. There is no doubt he viewed the US as inferior to his own operations and he even stated as much many times. In his mind, if he could defeat the U.S.S.R. then he could just as easily defeat the U.S. That is in fact exactly what he set out to do, to drive the U.S. out of the Middle East just as he had drove the U.S.S.R. out of the Middle East.

Now the U.S. started to hunt this guy down and went after him, and then Bin Laden simply learned how to hide.

That is what STARTED the attacks. If you want to blame the source cause of Bin Laden & terrorism vs. the US you would have to blame the following policies:

  • US policy to stop the spread of Communism by engaging the Soviet army with money and training. The Cold War.

  • US policy to be the worlds police state. By getting itself involved in battles to defend nations such as Kuwait against Iraq.

Now… We know what caused the attacks to begin against the US. What are the reasons for them to continue beyond this point?

Bin Laden had already turned against the US The US, with troops already stationed in Saudi Arabia, began to get bombed by Islamic Extremists. Their entire demand was that the US pull out of the Middle East all troops and presence.

What policy is to blame for the US remaining in the Middle East? Global security and the promotion of US interests mostly. There’s literally 100 reasons the US could list for the need to station troops in the Middle East… But basically the main reasons it comes down to is this:

  • To hunt down islamic militants & ensure middle east stability.

  • To secure the worlds oil supply.

  • Location, Location, Location. If you want to be able to strike anyone, anywhere, anytime you need troops and bases all over the globe. That is what the US has, with troops stationed in 100+ countries.

Basically the bottom line is this:

Bin Laden wants (wanted) to become to sole protectorate of the Middle East. The new mafia overlord of the entire region. And then he could use his base of fighters and connections to tear down any regime that did not support his ideas (basically militant islam and the type of islamic state he had going on in Afghanistan). His key idea is to take the wealth of the Middle East (Oil) and secure it ALL for the people who live there, deny the rest of the world any use of it, and turn the Middle East into an islamic mecca while the rest of the world rots away without energy. This is all stated fact from Bin Laden himself.

The United States would never let that happen and has been actively involved in pushing against that very event ever since our embassies were bombed. That is the key bone that caused Al-Qaeda to continue to attack us. The US is in the way of their pushing militant islam around the world.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/1551100.stm

http://www.rotten.com/library/bio/crime/terrorists/osama-bin-laden/

http://www.maximmatt.com/oldnews/apr03/jihad.htm

Decide for yourself. What policies could the US change? It would have to stop being the worlds police state. Would have to stop all of it’s interests in the Middle East. And pull back all troops to our soil and let the world deal with itself. But if we did that, what would happen? This Al-Qaeda guy would have taken over the Middle East and right about now I bet he’d be knocking on our doorstep with nuclear weapons.

PS: The current war against Iraq was perhaps the most ignorant thing this country could have done. It did absolutely nothing to combat fundamentalist Islam and in fact has only made the situation worse. Now, not only does Al-Qaeda have a new training grounds, they get to train against and shoot at US troops. But the tremendous anger this has stirred up with militant islamics in the region is sure to be a huge recruiting benefit for Al-Qaeda.