The beauty of living in a stable, prosperous, adversarial 2-party bureaucracy…oops I mean democracy…is that the idiots can’t do much damage once they are elected. That leaves us free to abuse and take for granted freedoms that citizens of less fortunate places give their lives for by braving shark-infested waters on inflatable rafts, for instance.
Yes, the current crop of presidential candidates makes me want to play lollipop with a .44 Magnum, but we’re still pretty damn lucky that our political process screens out the villains as much as it does the heroes.
I had decided against butting into this topic but since Sweden came up, I really need to add to the discussion.
First, I am Swedish, I have lived here all but three and a half years of 26 so far. Out of these, I spent two years in the US, four months in Canada and the rest in France. I am not an expert on either of the American, Canadian or French governments. I am not even an expert on Swedish government, but I believe I know more than most here.
Sweden is indeed a socialist country. This does not mean that people don’t have the freedom to choose for themselves. Certain freedoms are not removed (unless of course these freedoms involve owning a gun and shooting people who trespass on your property). Swedes have the right to choose where they want to live, where they want their children to go to school, what doctor to see at what hospital, how their pensionfunds are going to be managed until the day they do retire. For those who do not wish to make these choices for themselves, the government will choose for them. This, as I see it, does not mean that “certain freedoms” are removed. You might even point out that we even have the freedom not to choose.
College is indeed free and anyone with a knack for studying will be accepted at the finest colleges and universities. The government run funding program provides students who are not blessed with rich parents sufficient funds to live and study without having to work while studying. Hell, the program even provides rich kids with money, as long as they do not make too much money of their own.
I could go on and on on the subject. I won’t. I could also state the number of things I think is wrong with this country, as I think any intelligent member of any country could (and should) do, but I won’t. I just wanted to provide another view of Sweden, where it is not portrayed as a communist sock puppet country.
Oh, and one more thing, since this is the pit; one reason some Americans piss me off is the fact that when they ask me what country I prefer, Sweden or the US, they get offended when I truthfully answer Sweden.
And FreakFreely, feel free to send me an e-mail. I’d be more than happy to give you some advice and whatever you might need. Or just exchange rants about the greatness of Sweden :D.
FF, how long will you be in Sweden? Perhaps you can update us all after you’ve been there for a year. The common experience for US travellers abroad seems to be that they come back with a greater appreciation for their country than they left with. (grammar? “…than with which they left”?)
I’m not saying this will happen to you, but perhaps you won’t be as cynical about America after your perspective broadens. In any case, I hope you enjoy the experience, but it may not be as great a contrast or as glorious an improvement as you expect.
(And BTW, I’m pretty sure tradesilicon is well equipped for a flame exchange, so you might not want to invite the response. But then again, from the title of your thread I suppose that’s what you’re going for.)
I recently spent a couple of weeks in England and was able to observe Parliament sessions. Talk about wasting time and tax money! They spend as much time as our legislature does debating things that have already been passed.
I spoke to a lot of Brits and they envy us in a lot of ways. They insist that they are reminded constantly that they are not really free to do and say whatever they please. There is a lot of invasion of privacy, as well. For instance, the Ministry of Information has access to ALL email and databases in the UK. Period.
France was fantastic and there seem to be very few laws that restrict anything anyone wants to do, but there economy is terrible right now and I didn’t get a chance to observe their government in action.
All in all, many countries waste many dollars (pounds, yuan, francs, deutschemarks, etc) on corrupt and/or ineffective government. I’m still glad to be back in the USA. Someday I may retire to the French countryside and drink enough wine to ignore the goings on in the government.
In defense of Libertarians, our canidate may look like death, but AL GORE LOOKS LIKE A GUPPY!
On a more serious level, no, Libertarians do not want to destroy ALL taxes, simply reduce the level of taxes. In short, the Libertarian party only supports the use of taxes to protect people’s basic rights through the creation of the military, police, and a legal system that provides an avenue for people to enforce contracts and also fairly try suspects. All of these should be accomplished in a manner that does not violate the Constitution or many of its guaranteed rights.
The Libertarian Party, Harry Brown, etc. have never proposed that the jobs of government lsted above could be accomplished through Elves or Farries, they fully acknowledge the importance of minimal taxes to provide all of these services.
Let me say first, “that all your life” is still quite short, I’ll try to take a lighter tone with you. Not that there is some magic age, that somehow allows one to have a more enlightened view, just that a 19 year old who has lived all his life in the US really has not experienced much of the world. I think you have an interesting journey ahead, and you will be surprised how many times you will change your mind about things like Politics, Society, people in general…Just when you think you have nailed the villain in some situation life throws a new twist. You find out, for instance, that not all those who are “rich” are evil, or stealing from the poor. On the other hand, not all those who are in Socialized Sweden are better off than the US. (Although I like Sweden, I just think you are overstating the case.) I am 35, and only now do I begin to understand the things I have yet to learn. I think you can use a healthy respect for that which you do not know.
That said,
So, if you are saying that the absence of a lower class means that life is better all around you are simply wrong. Everyone in the whole country may be living a life slightly above what we call poverty, and there would be no “lower” class, per se, but you sure as hell can’t say the quality of life is better all around, can you? And of course you would still have the relatively few fat cats on top, as in every society. That can’t equal “better” even in your mind.
No, not at all. You seemed to say that you “hate America” but the reasons you gave were completely nonsensical.
[quote]
Should I use smaller words?
YES, I REALLY THINK THAT WOULD HELP.
You know, this could be the beginning of something wonderful…
soda, thank you for your post. I very much enjoy hearing from people from all over the world about their place of origin or residence. I have not been to Sweden, but I really like what I have heard so far. One day hope to visit, and learn something.
I have a very strong dislike for this as well. If someone said to me that they were pissed because I prefer my homeland to theirs the conversation would be over. What I don’t like is the way Freak feels necessary to bash the US of A, which has been his home, and not state any real, rational reason why. I will not insult any other country
the way he did, and just expect others to swallow it. Anyway, if you care to start a “Ask the Swedish Guy” thread, I’ll be interested to hear more.
Jesus Christ. You like being kicked around, or what Freaky?
Can you please explain this? I always thought wealth was created through Capitalism and the marketplace. Let me explain the creation of wealth to you in very simple terms. Wealth is created when assets are moved from lower valued uses to higher valued uses. Period.
I suggest you read Eat the Rich by P.J. O’Rourke. Then you can move on to some more scholarly works. Try Why Government is the Problem and Free to Choose by Milton Friedman.
Friedman and John Kenneth Galbraith never said anything to me about creating wealth by destroying fascism. Strange.
Sili, nice to meet you too and thank you for your support on my little pet peeve. If I should decide to start enlightening the masses on the topic of Sweden it would be Ask the Swedish Chick :).
Yours truly,
soda
Holy shit! Sweden? How the hell did I miss that? So, you think you might like living in a country that mandates your religion (Lutheran)? You think might like living in a country where 70% of the GDP is gov’t spending? You think you might like living in the only developed western European country where the economy actually shrank every year from 1994 to 1998?
You really need to take a look at Eat the Rich. Yow!
UncleBeer, I’m sorry, but are you asking me or FF?
If it is me, I’d like to say that no one mandates my religion. I am an atheist, I do not belong to any church what so ever, and no one has ever given me grief about that. One of my best friends is a Muslim, no one bothers her when she attends the mosque. The Swedish Lutheran Church has been divided from the state and no one is ever forced to be a member. Having a state religion does not imply that we do not have freedom of religion.
I’ll have to get back to you on the economics. That’s not exactly my area of expertise. But 70% seems a bit, well, too much, even for a country like Sweden. However, it does provide us with excellent schools, hospitals and whatnot. For every member of the community, not just the rich ones.
The economy did shrink between 1994 and 1998. To my knowledge, Sweden was not the only country which suffered from the worldwide baisse of economy during this period. I might be mistaken.
I will read Eat the Rich, but not until I’ve had my holiday. So until then, I just like to add that I actually like living in Sweden. I am not convinced that it is the perfect place, but I do like it.
soda, my bad. If you could only see the shade of RED my face has just turned! (It’s enough to make any socialist smile). Please forgive me, soda, I reeeeeaaaaalllyy look forward to the “Ask the Swedish Chick Thread”!! But enough about that, I don’t want to take away from the Hate America thread…
Hiya Unca Beer! I should’ve known P. J. O’Rourke’s very own dittohead would show up to crash the party!
Sure, be happy to. See, before the second world war we didn’t have nearly so much money. Then Hitler came along and beat the shit out of everyone else. Now, since we didn’t really have much play in that war, we got through relatively unharmed. And since we were one of the only countries left standing, everyone else needed to buy our stuff. Not to mention, borrow our money. So yeah, it was capitalizing that made us so rich (namely, capitalizing on other people’s pain), but not capitalism itself.
Huh? That’s news to me, man. And if that’s true, then it certainly isn’t enforced. Because the woman I’ll be living with is pagan, and she’s never had a problem.
Yes, I would. That’s the problem with people’s attitude towards taxes. They see it as money they lose and never see again. But it isn’t, it’s money that goes right back to you in an indirect form. True, some people benefit from it more than others. But generally, the people who benefit from it the most are the people who need it the most. And besides, wouldn’t you like to walk home without seing anyone laying in the street? Wouldn’t it be wonderful if you didn’t have to worry about your children’s welfare?
Do you think of everything in terms of money? Even if the economy is shrinking, the over-all quality of life is still very high. And I see that as being pretty successful.
Apparently there’s something else you didn’t see. Because, as I said to Sili, I did read that book. And as I said before, he’s funny, but he’s wrong. He’s also rather prejudiced against socialism. And I think you may be too.
BTW, when are you getting back from vacation? The board ain’t the same without you, man!
Soda & FF: I am sure sweden is a wonderful country, and it is on my 'short list" of counrties i would not mind living in - IF I could not live in America. But you folks can live in Sweden if you like- so if it so great-WHY are you not living there?
I am so fcking tired of people bashing the USA, and saying that their home country is SO wonderful-when the are living here. So when I ask, why are you here, the usually say: “Well, there are no jobs and the taxes are too high, so I moved here for the money”. I mean- will you fcking LISTEN to yourselves?!?. County “X” is SO VERY GREAT- BUT- There’s no jobs and the taxes are too high. That is why the United States is so great- there are LOTS of well paying jobs, and the taxes are (comparitively) low. Oh, sure, lower crime, socialized medicine, free education, and all is very nice- BUT- by living here you have just admitted that all that is no substitute for a good job and a government that only takes a moderate amount of the pay thus earned.
Or sometimes they say “I’m only here to get my degree”, and then go on about how “their” country’s educational system is so much better…HELLO!!! Are you blind or just stupid? If your country’s educational system is so much better- then you would be going to college THERE, along with thousands of Americans.
Now, for those who are in their home country, then you can say your home is wonderful, and I hope it is, but I still think mine is better- Well, we are both patriots (a dirty word sometimes), but at least we are not hypocrites.
Well, I can’t really argue with that, since I’m not entirely sure what you’re saying. I mean, there are some people in their country who are doing better than some people in our country. And vice versa. But I’m speaking in terms of the general standard of living for the working-class.
Sure it can. It means to me that they take care of their own. And that, in my opinion, is one of the foremost signs of a sivilized society.
I’m sorry, I thought I was making sense. How 'bout this: I hate America because our government is fucked, and worries more about it’s economy than it’s civilians.
I certainly hope so. So long as you remember that just because I flame you, it doesn’t mean I don’t like you. Take UncleBeer for instance, I love that crusty old geezer!
That said, flame away!
Xeno sez:
I would hate to think that was the case. I don’t want anyone to restrain themselves with me. I can take it, or I can’t. But I hate to be patronized almost as much as I hate America.
Jesus, I and thought that pop psychology was bad. Now I have to read a book by some second-rate humourist/journalist to study economics and goverment?
I’ve heard some bad things about the U.S. educational system, but surely you haven’t sunken this low?
Okay, so I’m a Finnish guy, but Finland is very similiar to Sweden in many respects. Lesson follows:
Freedom of religion and freedom from religion
All faiths are tolerated, but extremists are frowned upon.
And I mean “frowned” by the people, not by govermental institutions. Drooling fundamentalists, like Rev. Jerry Falwell(?) would get no support, most likely just laughs.
Our current president (Ms. Tarja Halonen) lives unmarried with her S.O. and is agnostic (I’m not quite sure). She’s the most popular politician right now. One of the prominent members of our “Christian” Party tried to open a US-style abortion debate by posting pictures of aborted embryos on his website. Even his own party was disgusted.
“Evil” Welfare state
Hey, we have free elections! So the current system, while not perfect, is approved by the majority. Those who don’t like it, can leave at will. In rougher economic times during the 60s and 70s many did leave… to Sweden.
Education
There are ignorant rednecks in Finland, though they don’t drive pick-ups and carry shotguns (those awful repressive gas prices and gun laws). But most of us do know quite a bit about the world around us. And we don’t make sweeping generalizations about other countries… often.
And few notes on patriotism. As a country which won it’s independence in 1917 and had to really defend it in two separate conflicts during the WW2, patriotism is something which is deeply rooted in the Finnish psyche. For some strange reason we do trust our goverment and military enough to protect us and our 600+ miles of border with Russia without arming our own homes. Even the Finnish flag is somewhat “holy”, you don’t use as a model for wallpaper.
It’s fucking late here (3.00 AM), so that’s all I have to say. I hope this has broadened your conceptions about the Evil Nordic Regimes. I do enjoy this messageboard for it’s variety and intelligent people, which are hard to come by in any country. Please, continue fighting ignorance, don’t spread it.
See that’s the problem with you right wingers. You try and convince him why Sweden is such a bad place but, you miss the real reason. There is one really really good reason not to go to Sweden.
It’s FUCKING COLD
Thank you.
As for you FF, it’s ok I hate America too. What’s my main gripe? Idiots like Snivel.
Freak, if the life here annoys you so much then move to a place where you can appreciate the life. You have your entire life ahead of you, take action and move, don’t just talk about it, do it. I hope you find what you are missing and what you want a country to be in another land.
Soooooooooo, shove off ya slimy squelch head!!
Daniel, Archer: I think you guys missed something. I am moving to Sweden. I’ll be ther in a month or two.
Daniel sez:
Yes, I could do that… but it would be wrong!
And besides, it’s a matter of perspective, I think all that is more important than low taxes. But what makes you think there aren’t any good jobs in Sweden?
