The reign of King Charles III of the United Kingdom

… And yet nearly every day I’m at work I see at least one Canadian penny mixed in with the other change. Canada might not be using them anymore but apparently the qualify as legal tender in the US given how widely circulated they are.

I, too, await the arrival of Canadian coins with Charles III on them but I expect it will be a bit before they filter all the way to Indiana.

I think at work we have one in our foreign coin jar. Coins last a long time.

Or if all relatives die before you. That sometimes does happen. Usually from wars or natural disasters, but it can happen.

What I’m sure happens more often is that someone has no known relatives. I’m working on a family tree and the difference in the two sides of my family is amazing. On my mother’s side, I started off knowing my great-grandparents’ names and their siblings’ names and the sibling’s children , grandchildren and some of their great-grandchildren ( I think that takes me up to second cousin three times removed, off the top of my head. ) A lot of people have to die before I have no known relatives. On my father’s side however, until I started working on this family tree, the only relatives I knew about were my five first cousins and one cousin’s kids. I started working on it after my father and his brothers were all deceased and I didn’t know whether either of my grandparents had siblings. Turns out they did - but until last year, none of us knew that.

Which brings me to pedigree collapse - I think it happens more often in non-royal families than people believe it does. On that side of the family where I knew my relatives, my great-grandparents all emigrated from the same area - and there are multiple generations where a Brown married a Smith or a Chambers married a Brown. I had to stop adding people to the tree because I already have 800 something people in it - I’m probably at least a third cousin a couple of times removed to everyone who still lives in that town.

IMO @doreen nailed it. Both sides of it.

The laws on intestate succession don’t require an exhaustive search back to every (Caucasian’s) common ancestor Charlemagne. In the absence of surviving obvious family the government makes a short good faith effort, and if they come up empty-handed, they declare the problem “too hard for us” and the search comes to an end.


IANA genealogist; the idea of caring about my ancestors or even my unknown blood relatives of current or subsequent generations simply baffles me.

Of my blood relatives I know my sibs, my one aunt and four first cousins on my dad’s side. The entirely of my Mom’s side of my family is a mystery. And not due to any bad blood, black sheep, etc. Just total indifference, physical distance, and passage of time. Enough of these people were born in the US in the modern era of good recordkeeping that I have no doubt a few hours of skilled searching would turn up the entire downline from all 4 of my grandparents. And the whole downline from probably about half of my 8 great-grandparents.

But somebody else will have to have the motivation to do that search; I sure won’t.

Please don’t punch down at minority languages. Each letter has a function in the rules of that language. Go poke fun at French or German or one that’s not going extinct due to pressure from our language.

This will vary from jurisdiction to jurisdiction; there is no single “the government”. In Ontario, the government hires professional genealogists to try to track down intestate succession, as mentioned in post 1048 above:

To a point - I notice that the criteria for OPGT to administer an estate includes

the estate is valued at a minimum of $10,000 after payment of the funeral and all debts owing by the estate.

which means they won’t be involved in estates under $10,000 at all and they probably don’t hire professionals to search for the next of kin for every estate over $10K.

That’s not really so unusual.

Charles’s grandparents, George VI and Elizabeth the Queen Mother, had no common ancestry going back at least to their great-grandparents. They each had eight great-grandparents, with no overlap.

Ancestry of George VI
Ancestry of Elizabeth the Queen Mother

Queen Elizabeth and Prince Philip also both had eight great-grandparents, with no overlap at that level.

Ancestry of Queen Elizabeth
Ancestry of Prince Philip

They did have some connections: Christian IX and Prince Louise were Philip’s great-grandparents, and Elizabeth’s great-great-grandparents, and they were both great-great-grandchildren of Victoria and Albert.

Eight great-grandparents, with no overlap at that level, is not pedigree collapse.

But try putting them in that little bitty can…

If you look back far enough, and wide enough, geneology gets silly.For example:
Albert Einstein is related to Donald Trump. Yes, seriously.

Here’s how I know:
I am listed on a huge family tree which was compiled by a total stranger to me, and contains 1500 of his relatives . The “root” of the tree is this guy’s great-great-grandfather in Germany, 1870 ish, who had 5 kids, who each had 5 kids, etc.
All this data is all kept on a website, and the software looks for connections wherever the computer can find them. The website has sent me a diagram of a family tree with my name at the top, and Albert Einstein at the bottom, and with 22 people between us.

Similarly, the website notified me of the same thing with Donald Trump, listing about 20 branches between Trump’s name and mine.
All of this is because I am married to someone with German grandparents , and of course Trump and Einstein also have roots in Germany.

So, yes, folks…Albert Einstein and Donald Trump are related!
I’m going to guess that everybody in modern Germany is related to everybody else in Germany, if you cast your net wide enough.

Just remembered something else. Charles and Diana were distantly related. The Spencers are descended from an illegitimate child of Charles II by one of his mistresses, and also from James II by one of his mistresses.

Charles II and James II were cousins to Sophia, Dowager Electress of Hanover, mother of George I, from whom Charles III is descended.

Charles II, James II and Sophia were all grandchildren of James I: Charles II and James II via Charles I, son of James I, and Sophia was the daughter of Princess Elizabeth, daughter of James I.

It’s Stuarts all the way down.

But there is a flipside to that. I seem to remember that no British monarch has been descended from Charles II, despite his many illegitimate offspring. Which should mean that William will be the first. That’s mainly because, with a handful of obvious exceptions, British monarchs over the past few centuries didn’t marry members of the British aristocracy.

If your family in say England goes back 800 years or so, you are related to the Royal family and pretty much everyone else who goes back that far. So while QE2 did marry a distant cousin, if she wanted to marry anyone from an old English family- it would also have been a distant cousin.

The thing is- if you say “such and such married their cousin” everyone thinks first cousin, which is generally a no-no. But Oliver never mentioned “3rd cousins several times removed”. He pretty much lied by simply saying “cousins”. No one would give a rats ass if he mentioned the truth. Lying by omission is still a lie.

Cite, please?

Well, sure, that happens.

I was thinking more of my father’s family. Anyone who didn’t leave Europe prior to 1939 was obliterated - so far as we know. And the number who escaped were few. As gemological records (as well as any other documents that could be thrown on a bonfire) were also casualties, as were such sources of information as graveyards bulldozed, we’ll never know for sure what happened to them but the genealogists in the family have been searching for decades. Lots of relatives discovered in my mother’s side, no new ones on dad’s side. If my father hadn’t married and had children at the time of his death he would have had no living relatives anywhere.

Yes, that’s where I first saw this little bit, when Chuck married Di. It was in one of the many articles on the topic, and it pointed out that their issue would be the first descendants of Charles II on the throne.

I don’t think that needs much of a cite. Just looking at the pedigrees in Wikipedia, at the great-grandparents of Charles III’s great-grandparents (so 4×great-grandparents), I see that Ernest of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha is two of his g-g-g-g-grandparents, as are his wife Louise of Saxe-Gotha-Altenberg and also Victoria of Saxe-Coburg-Saalfeld. It’s not shocking to find out that Ernest and Victoria were first cousins. Two other 4×great grandparents for Frederick of Denmark and his half-sister Louise; another 4×great grandparent is Frederick’s daughter Charlotte.

I think that’s more than the average bear, though admittedly after Queen Victoria’s generation the pool widens rather quickly.

Sure, but does that amount to pedigree collapse for Elizabeth or Charles, which is what Oliver is insinuating with his “cousins marrying” stuff? Each of them has eight different great-grandparents, for a total of sixteen different great-grandparents in each generation. Once you start going past great-grandparents, it’s more of a historical background than anything that relates to the current genetic diversity in the royal family.

Here’s the passage from the Wikipedia article on Pedigree collapse, talking about examples in European royal families:

Among royalty, the frequent requirement to marry only other royals resulted in a reduced gene pool in which most individuals were the result of extensive pedigree collapse. Alfonso XII of Spain, for example, had only four great-grandparents instead of the usual eight. Furthermore, two of these great-grandparents, Charles IV of Spain and Maria Luisa of Parma, who themselves were first cousins, were parents of another great-grandparent, Maria Isabella of Spain. Essentially, Alfonso’s parents were double first cousins, i.e. his two grandfathers were brothers and his two grandmothers were sisters, meaning there were only two sets of great-grandparents rather than four. In addition, each grandfather had married one of their sister’s daughters, i.e. they had each married their sororal niece.

The most extreme example was Charles II of Spain:

In the case of Charles II, the last Habsburg King of Spain, there were three uncle-niece marriages among the seven unions of his immediate ancestry (i.e. parents, grandparents and great-grandparents). His father and two of his great-grandfathers married their nieces. His paternal grandparents were first cousins once removed, but they comprised two of the seven marriages because they were also parents to his maternal grandmother. His maternal grandparents’ marriage and the final marriage of great-grandparents was between first cousins.

That’s nothing like the marriages and descent in the British Royal family, past or present.

There’s also the point that DrDeth makes, that in small villages in England, there could also be pedigree collapse, prior to the increase of mobility in the 19th century. So saying that the British Royal family has more pedigree collapse than average, runs into that issue: how do you assess that they have a greater history of pedigree collapse prior to the mid-19th century than was common in the English population at that time?

The pedigree of the royal family is more well-documented than John Brown marrying his cousin Mary Smith in Upper Tooting, but to say that the royal family had greater pedigree collapse than average requires a lot more genealogical research than just pointing to Victoria and Albert, the last example of a monarch marrying a first cousin that I can find. That was in 1840. I find it difficult to say that marriage, 184 years ago, meant that Elizabeth II, Charles III, and the current Prince of Wales have greater pedigree collapse than average.

Just out of curiosity, I checked out George III and Queen Charlotte. As far as I can tell, they each had eight great-grandparents, with no overlap, so again, hard to make out a pedigree collapse argument there, either.

Ancestry of George III
Ancestry of Queen Charlotte

Similarly, as far as I can tell, Victoria’s parents did not appear to have any relationship up to their great-grandparents, each having eight:

Ancestry of Edward, Duke of Kent
Ancestry of Victoria, Duchess of Kent

Oh my God, do you really want me to try and tediously work this out by hand for an offhand intended-to-be humorous comment I made 7 months ago :smiley:? Mostly I intrinsically disdain royals for for being a parasitic anachronism, so I think mocking them is a public good. Even if slightly hyperbolic mocking :wink:.

I did start tracing lines, but after about ten minutes of trying to figure out how to actually refer to the relationship between George V and Queen Mary (of Teck - both lineal descendants of George III, but one generation removed, so second cousins once removed it seems), I said blech and I searched for someone else who had already done the footwork.

We’ll go with this cat - How inbred is Charles III? His answer, which I’ve seen replicated else, seems to be - mildly. Probably a bit more so that the “average” cosmopolitan Westerner, possibly a bit less than some folks from isolated communities somewhere. Far, far less than poor Charles II of Spain.

Charles’ kids and grandkids are not that bad - they and Charles himself married out. But Charles III is the current king, the royals suck just on general principle and Charles is inbred enough. I formally declare him fair game for all bloodline jokes!

Old jokes cast long shadows. :grin:

Specially when other Dopers cite your joke as definitive. :smile:

Can’t access it, sorry; seems to need a linked in account?