Well shit, that’s the problem, I’ve been careful all this time.
Your very, very lengthy line of “but why have gendered bathrooms at all” is a frequent tactic used by anti-transgender persons I encounter. I’ve even debated it a few times IRL, face to face, at city hall meetings.
Uh huh.
If your only “service” for my people is to play “devil’s advocate” on an internet message board, then you need to realize…that’s not really a substantive thing.
LOL. Thanks, I’ll save that.
Lance you are no devil’s advocate bravely taking on the established belief system. You’re a dick trying to stir up shit.
What I wish, as a psychotherapist working with transgender clients at all stages of their process, is that the truly vexed, confused and ignorant could attend something like the 2-day professional training regarding working with transgender clients I just attended. We had several panels of our clients sharing with us their stories about being trans/gender fluid/etc, and if you could just spend time with these people, you’d never be genuinely worried about the “bathroom problem” and other made-up bullshit. I don’t like to overgeneralize much, but of all the characteristics they embody, scary and predatory couldn’t be further from the truth. All of this backlash really does amount to ignorance, fear and the cynical manipulation thereof.
Really?
If I weren’t willing to allow my own views to be challenged, would I even be here? Would I be asking so many pointed questions?
Because they prefer the easy way out.
Or maybe they already have all this figured out and don’t need me. If so, they can simply answer my questions and be done with it.
Sure. But they haven’t convince me of that yet.
So why should I be the one who can’t talk and they get to spew their opinions? Suppose I were opposed to transgenders being allowed in restrooms - would you tell me to shut up too because everyone has “considered your ideas and find them irrelevant and poorly reasoned?” And if I said that to you in response, what would you say?
It really doesn’t matter why I challenge other people’s views. I do it. That’s what we do here. The only reason I explain why is because a) I am disgusted by the insults from people who can’t see that and b) I’m dismayed by those who share my opinions but use weak arguments to justify them that are going to face the music when they try to use them out in the real world.
They’re pretty much the same thing, genius.
I’m here. I’m a dick. I’m stirring up shit. Your choice is to show how smart you are and how you deal with the shit, or to whine like a baby about it and go back in your protected little world where your views are never challenged. I don’t really care which you pick.
Well, yes. That’s the point. So if you’ve debated it already, you should have no problem debating it here.
I’m perfectly aware that my “line” about why have gendered restrooms is often used by opponents. Duh. But my logic comes from a completely opposite direction - from SUPPORT for people with alternate gender identities, of all kinds. I’m surprised you haven’t understood that yet.
Regardless, it doesn’t matter - I predict that you will have to face my questions in the future, and that they will come from the people on our side, not the opposition, and then you won’t be able to avoid it.
Of course it is. It’s probably the most substantive thing that can happen on this board. Sitting around bashing idiots who don’t get it or are just plain bigots is easy. But you’re going to need to do more someday, or someone will.
Okay then – do it. Be the devil’s advocate for the Holocaust – maybe the Jews really were conspiring to bring down the Aryan people, right? Or are they just making it all up to continue to control world events? How about slavery – maybe white masters really did have slaves’ best interests at heart! Or domestic violence – maybe women really do need to be put in their place, right? Just a few slaps aren’t so much to whine about, are they? Be the devil’s advocate for rape, and pedophilia, and genocide…
After all, you’d just be helping people argue better, right? So why not do that?
Because I don’t need to. None of those examples make any sense and are easily debunked or dismissed.
The role of transgender people is entirely new territory. It is fitting a new factor into an old system, and an old way of thinking about both civil rights and gender. And it is going to lead to more. The arguments in favor of it are ripe for refining.
As long as people are out there saying completely self-contradictory statements such as “Transgender people should be able to choose which bathroom to use because nobody should care who they use a bathroom with,” my services will be needed.
But neither does your concern about gendered bathrooms.
From what I can tell, you’ve spent the most time arguing with people who do not use those sorts of self-contradictory statements. You’ve been playing devil’s advocate with the people who make the best arguments for trans rights.
And you’re seriously kidding yourself if you think that you’ve come up with any “Devil’s advocate” position on trans rights that someone like Una has never heard before.
Let me repeat the challenge one more time:
Is there anyone you think should be excluded from a restroom for any reason? Not talking about lewd behavior, just something about them - physical appearance or genetic makeup. Anyone? Would you want to exclude a male who looks female, or vice versa, but still identifies as his/her cisgender status? Would you want to exclude a transgender person who still prefers to use the bathroom of their sex and not their gender?
If not, then you have eliminated the need for gendered restrooms, because you cannot know whose sex–or gender–the others in the restroom with you are. As soon as one person choose differently from what you prefer, the restroom you are in is no longer gendered. It’s unisex/unigender.
That is the logical conclusion. And I’m fine with it. Anyone who thinks they can demand access for transgender people to a gendered restroom system and then slam the door shut on other people without setting up that system to be ended is deluding themselves. To preserve the gendered restroom system, they will have to say “no” to other people who want the same access and the same choice.
Who has expressed any interest in preserving gendered restrooms? I don’t care if they stay; I don’t care if they disappear. It doesn’t matter to me either way.
What matters is protecting trans people, and since there’s no reason to believe that gendered bathrooms are likely to change any time soon (and since I see no reason to push this issue), then it’s entirely logical and reasonable to argue for protecting trans people within the gendered restroom system, and the gendered restroom system will operate just as well if it protects trans people as it would if it didn’t.
You are never going to get an answer for this, because the answer is “Yes, men should not be allowed in restrooms with women” and there is no way to say that without sounding sexist and bigoted, thus it’s easier to just not say anything and refuse to answer the question.
I thought the whole point was that transgender people HAVE to use the bathroom that corresponds to their gender? They don’t have a choice on which bathroom to use.
Transgender people have. They are the ones who want to use a certain restroom based on gender.
So a transgender woman shouldn’t be forced to use a restroom full of men now, but it’s okay if she is forced to do so because there’s no women’s-only room for her to choose.
Okay, so here’s the deal.
Trans people, at least those who others know (or even suspect - cisgender people have already been targeted just for looking like they might be transgender) may face just as much, or even MORE, threat by using the bathroom of their gender rather than their sex these days. The rightwing fanatics are after them now. So if it’s about protecting them, that solution isn’t necessarily going to work either. And if protecting them is the highest priority, how could you possibly oppose, say, the suggestion that we offer special restrooms just for them?
I’m not talking about soon. It won’t happen overnight. But my point is that it won’t even matter. If you can’t know what gender or sex other people in the restroom are - because they are either transgender, or they simply look like the opposite gender from their sex but don’t identify with it - then what’s the point? Why even have gendered restrooms, or sexed restrooms, or whatever? That process could happen rather quickly now that transgender people have opened the door to it. And that’s a GOOD thing.
Exactly. I won’t get an answer. The best I get is that we’ll just rely on everyone to voluntarily use the restroom they want, which is fine, but that completely breaks down as soon as one person chooses the opposite. If you are a woman who prefers a bathroom without men in it and just one man uses it, he ruined it for you. You no longer have such a room. And since the man might actually be a cisgender woman who simply choose to look and dress like a traditional idea of a man (she may be a lesbian, or maybe not), and you can’t tell her from a male, then there’s no point anyway.
All I want is for people to stop pretending that this is the end of it, and to stop acting like asking these questions is somehow damaging to the cause. I’m ready to move beyond supporting just transgender people. I wonder if others are ready.
That’s why I asked that question. I can’t say it would occur in real life though. However, there are people who say they are genderfluid - their gender changes back and forth - and others who say they are non-binary and have no gender, or both. Those are real people. They have rights too. How we could fit them into the current “men and women, one or the other” system is a tough question.
No, this is entirely false. Many people have provided answers, repeatedly. iiandyiiii in particular has answered over and over again. lance just doesn’t accept the answers, because he is the Smartest Guy in the Room and we’re all Just Idiots. So he chooses to pretend no one is really addressing his Very Clever and Helpful points.
Moved the discussion to this thread.
Really?
Then what should you tell a girl who doesn’t want to use the restroom or shower with someone with a penis, regardless of gender?
Why can’t a man use the women’s room without fear of repercussions from others if he is more comfortable in there?
How can you tell what gender the person in the women’s room is?
Perhaps you’d like a shot at answering them.
I’ll give it a try (for the millionth time):
Chances are, you’ve been doing so all your life, very occasionally. Generally, you’ll probably find that your life is better if you don’t worry about the body parts inside a stranger’s clothing. And if you witness anyone behaving in a lewd manner, report them to the authorities.
He probably can, in general. I’ve never suffered any repercussions from the many times I’ve used a ladies’ room.
But I’ve never known any man who would feel more comfortable there. There probably exists such an odd fellow, but I’m no more concerned about such extremely rare possibilities than by the rare person who prefers to exclusively go to the bathroom while in the woods, with no human within miles.
If there exists such a person, he probably used ladies’ rooms in the past and probably can in the future, with the slightest bit of effort. New policies and practices don’t change this.
You can guess by various cues – appearance, body shape, voice, mannerisms, etc., but sometimes you’ll be wrong.
This was true in the past, too – nothing has changed. Some women are shaped in different ways, some dress in different ways, some have deep voices, etc.
So how’d I do?