The point of the cartoon is to justify the statement in panel 5, “I hate when men…” It’s justifying sexist language and mocking a man for daring to object to it.
Wrong again.
It backfires because it turns off men who would be their allies.
If they want men to help them, they need to treat them with equal respect. It’s pretty simple.
Funny - that’s EXACTLY how many anti-feminists describe feminists. To a tee.
If its’ not about me, stop talking about me.
I have no problem with saying that. I have a very big problem if you say, for instance, ALL men are sexist jerks, or ALL men are responsible for the sexist jerks. See how that works? It’s really simple. A slight shift in language to assure that you respect people as individuals - something we should all aspire to in all cases - fixes the problem. It applies to men too. We men should never say “all women are X.” This isn’t rocket science. If it’s not about me, don’t include me.
Is that the panel where the boor couldn’t even let the woman complete her thought without interrupting her? As if to imply that the potential for him to be tarred by the same brush as other men is more important that learning what she is about to complain about?
In a discussion about systemic sexism and rape culture, I’d say there are more important things to do than pointing out that not all men are rapists, something everyone already knows.
The problem is that it is a distraction. It’s thrown up by people who have absolutely no interest in the discussion to derail it, and move the subject from “these are problems women have” to “Pay attention to me, I have a problem with this, my minuscule problem should be talked about instead”.
“I hate it when men catcall me in the street.”
“I hate it when men follow me around staring at my ass.”
“I hate it when men drug and rape me.”
How are any of these generalizations? They apply to the men to whom they apply - not all men. Of course, she doesn’t get to finish her thought before Not-All-Man interjects. But keep in mind that the comic is mocking this guy. The reader is supposed to realize how much of a tool he is.
Obviously the cartoon is drawn in a ridiculous way to represent something that doesn’t happen in real life. It’s a cartoon. The premise behind it is the problem.
Can we get back to the debate on transgender issues?
There is an entire thread dedicated to trolling Lance into greater and greater fits of “OMFG R U kidding me!!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!”
I think Lance makes a good point that there is a tendency here to make broad nasty attacks against people who disagree with you on particulars even if they are on your side or “on the fence”
Puberty blockers are used to help both the mental health of the transgender child, as well as their physical health. They are intended to extend the period of the decision process of whether to transition or not. This is normally because when boys and girls enter puberty, their social roles change dramatically - I think most of us who went to a co-ed school saw that puberty suddenly changed the way we related to the opposite sex (or gender), as well as the way we related to our own gender groups.
Puberty blockers help a transgender child witness these changes and see if their gender identity still identifies as different than that of their birth sex. They also simply give them more time to work with their parents, counselors, psychologists, and doctors so that everyone is on board with a change at puberty and full hormone therapy.
If a transgender child is able to start on the correct hormones at puberty, they have a tremendous advantage later in life. A transgender girl will develop natural breasts, full hips, and all other secondary sex characteristics she would have if she was XX. Transgender boys will bulk up, broaden their shoulders, grow facial and chest hair, etc. as if they were XY.
The odd thing is some anti-transgender persons think that puberty blockers are the tools of Satan, when in fact they are actually a safety measure, to help make more sure that the transition is the correct thing to do.
Sometimes, but it also sometimes awakens in (formerly cisgender) kids that “OMG, this isn’t me.” This is often the case with transgender boys, several of whom I met did not fully get hit with body dysmprphia until their breasts grew - and then it was very traumatic for them.
The general standard of care is that if a child has been consistently, insistently, and persistently identifying one way up to puberty, it’s rare that they suddenly revert to cisgender. It’s much more common to have puberty trigger a cisgender child into being transgender.
The answer is complicated, and my best understanding of the research is that nurture can not change a “true” transgender child into being cisgender. This sounds like a “no true Scotsman” argument in a way, I agree. This is why extensive counseling and monitoring over several years is necessary. Generally speaking, if a child is going to “revert” back to cisgender, it happens within 2-3 months of counseling. After 6-12 months, it is rare for a transgender child to suddenly become cisgender. I will never say it’s impossible, and even I know of cases. But playing the odds, it’s rare, and very rare past 12 months.
Generally speaking, the concern about a possible “false positive” for a transgender child is a constant concern among professionals. It’s spoken about in every textbook, at every conference, in every group of papers on the subject. Believe me, we are all concerned about it - there are no free toasters given out for X number of transgender children “converted.” No system is ever going to be 100% perfect, because people are human, both subject and counselor. But there is a much, much greater chance of harm in general in denying or preventing a transgender child from transition. The psychological scars run deep, last a lifetime, and can be fatal. And a transgender child who knows that they could have avoided puberty for the wrong gender, but were prevented from doing so by their parents, can foster a resentment and anger and depression which is palpable, and lifelong.
With all forms of psychological and physical therapy there is a risk, because nothing is 100% certain. My problem as a scientist is that on the subject of transgender children, often folks are demanding 100.0000% certainty for treating a transgender child, when virtually no other psychological or physical treatment would have such a certainty demanded of it. True there is a large amount at stake too - gender transition is nothing to be taken lightly. What I’m trying to educate folks is that we do not take it lightly.
And I’ll also add the caveat that yes, in very rare cases unscrupulous parents can “doctor shop.” That happened decades before this became a current issue, and will happen long after this issue is done. I’ve seen a case of an 11-year-old whose parents got her breast implants and full hormones via a trip to a black market doctor in Thailand. There will always be outliers and rare exceptions, which sadly are what makes the papers in some circles.
You made a mistake. There was a post about really bad reasons to oppose transgendered rights, and I took that as a challenge, and posted a really bad reason to oppose transgendered rights.
You, clumsily, thought it related to you. It didn’t. It wasn’t about you, it wasn’t based on your ideas, it was just me, responding to a challenge.
You erred. You boobed. You flubbed. You pulled a boner.
Yeah, I know but some of the best debates on this board occur here in the pit where the muzzle is taken off and people can display their full range of emotions.
To be honest, it kind of shocked me a bit when you said that we were using puberty blockers like this. I had to think about it a bit before I recognized that puberty blockers were at the very least physically safe if not psychologically and emotionally safe. It sounds like you think that there is little to no emotional or psychological harm from using puberty blockers. Its not even a balancing act, there is virtually no harm from using puberty blockers and lots of potential harm from NOT using them.
I think that there is some concern that there might be an economic incentive for professionals to identify kids as transgender. How many unassociated professionals have to agree before hormone treatments begin on a minor? Can it commence on the advice of a single professional?
Don’t take this the wrong way but, I can imagine why a parent might want to deny that their kid is transgendered but why in the world would parents shop doctors to achieve a transgender diagnosis? Do THEY get a free toaster?
Why do you think there is some concern about this? Who is expressing such concern?
ISTM that such “concern” is totally backwards: on the contrary, there would be an economic incentive for unscrupulous professionals to identify transgender kids as not transgender. Endless opportunities for expensive therapy ostensibly to “reconcile” the kid to their “true” birth gender identification, which as you note most parents would probably see as a preferable solution over gender transitioning.
I can imagine that there are some unscrupulous mental health professionals out there – not a lot, but some… but misdiagnosing children as transgender on purpose? That goes beyond just unscrupulous… that’s to the level of condemning children to years (or more) of misery, and greatly increasing risk of substance abuse and even suicide. That’s monstrous to the level of serial child molestation, and I have a hard time believing that there are any significant number of mental health professionals who are literally willing to doom a child to years of misery just to make a bit of money.
Puberty blockers allow mental health professionals and parents to err on the side of caution. I’m uncertain why this is shocking.
Why…is there any more or less concern than for any other medical or mental health professional who might diagnose someone? Why here in this instance is this suddenly a concern? I’m now wondering about how far you’re wanting to look for perceived fatal flaws in this process.
The standard of care is for a degreed and licensed mental health professional to advise hormone therapy is appropriate, and then a physician will take this advice and examine and run labs on the transgender person to see if there is a medical risk. If no medical risk is found, and the physician agrees with the mental health professional, then they write the prescription for hormones. There are some states (Missouri for example) which allow “informed consent” only for people over 18, where a single physician can both assess the mental status and write the prescription.
It’s (probably) not that they want to, it’s that they are not going through proper channels and protocols due to ignorance or idiocy. This is why licensed mental health professionals and physicians should be involved. Or who knows the reason. I know it has happened. Very rare, but not nonexistent. I also have seen cisgender pre-pubescent girls with breast implants, nose jobs, tummy tucks, etc.; again, I don’t know the driving reason.
And a transgender child who is denied hormone therapy, due to their parents refusing to consent to treatment, will not be prevented from taking hormones. Kids can get pot, coke, pills, booze, LSD…you can be damn sure they can get hormones. They can get them on the black market in the US, where they often are in the form of megadoses of contraceptive pills, or sports-related performance-enhancing androgens. Or they can order them online, even from the Dark Web. Since hormones are not part of the “war on drugs,” the FDA and DEA do not aggressively police trafficking. In some countries I’ve visited, hormones can be purchased over the counter with no physician’s note whatsoever. I’ve seen them in Mexico for sale, as well as Thailand. So sometimes a “mule” will go down to Mexico, buy about 5,000 doses of estradiol and testosterone, and bring them back for sale.
Without proper dosing and monitoring the kids risk liver damage, DVT, mental staus changes, and other negative impacts. That’s assuming that they’re even hormones at all, and not cut with something else or mislabeled. And then sometimes the kids will take herbal supplements from GNC which are advertised as containing phytoestrogens or other estrogen-like compounds. I met a lady who as a teen OD’d on black cohosh, to the point where she suffered liver damage. And a teen who was arrested shoplifting something like 50 boxes of Estroven. Then there’s the stupid shit, such as the rumors on message boards. There’s a persistent rumor that Luna bars somehow contain “oodles of female hormones,” and you can read people posting things like “I ate 20 Luna bars a day, and my boobs started growing! I can feel the tingle!” White chocolate macadamia nut is supposed to be the “magic” one. Yeah, at 200 calories per bar, if you eat 20 bars a day something’s going to start growing… :smack:
I took “grey market” hormones for 6 months before my suicide attempt. They were trivial to get. It is possible that the megadoses of progesterone I was taking (which was highly inadvisable, but unavoidable in the versions I was taking; all I should have been getting was the estradiol) contributed to my depression. When I was put on the legal hormones, after 5 days for the levels to build my depression was lifted permanently, and this is often the case with others like me.
The fact that those denied hormones may obtain them illegally should not be taken as proof that hormones should always be given on-demand…and yet, there is an inescapable reality that transgender persons will, in desperation to help our gender dysphoria, a feeling which literally tears you apart at the seams, will seek out illegal hormones in some cases. FWIW.
I get the feeling I’m talking too much. Perhaps I need to just let this topic go for now.
No system is ever going to be 100% perfect, because people are human, both subject and counselor. But there is a much, much greater chance of harm in general in denying or preventing a transgender child from transition. The psychological scars run deep, last a lifetime, and can be fatal. And a transgender child who knows that they could have avoided puberty for the wrong gender, but were prevented from doing so by their parents, can foster a resentment and anger and depression which is palpable, and lifelong.
Why do you think there is some concern about this? Who is expressing such concern?