I am confused. Please correct my train of thought. I’m eager to learn more about baseball, but my logic may be flawed. Tell me where I am going wrong, in the following:
The closer, in baseball, is in charge of closing games, which means protecting the team’s lead if they are up, and providing a chance for them to come back in the bottom of the ninth if they are down a run or two.
Therefore, his “stuff” must have to be really good for the team to trust him in this role. He’s got to be able to shut down the opposition even more effectively than a starting pitcher, because of the late inning.
If his “stuff” is so good, why aren’t closers used in the sixth, seventh, or eighth inning? Don’t tell me they don’t have stamina to do it, because at the major league level, how can they have pitch location and control but can’t last more than three outs? Does their “stuff” magically disappear faster than a starting pitcher’s? What’s the difference between a starting pitcher and a closer in terms of skill set? If the closer is immensely talented (for example, Mariano Rivera, wouldn’t a manager want that talent against the opposition as long as possible? If it is a question of stamina, how can there be such a difference in endurance between two types of pitchers?
Most closers have one damn near unhittable pitch plus one or two others to keep the batter guessing.
You can’t go several innings on one pitch.
The closer can go all out for one inning. You can’t go like that for several any more than a starter can.
Think of a runner, you can’t run a mile at 100m sprint speed.
I can’t answer for all of your questions, but generally speaking, a closer only has to have 1 or 2 pitches that are working for him (and, for the last few seasons of his career, Mariano Rivera only threw ONE pitch, called a cutter, or cut fastball), whereas a starter generally have to have at least 3 pitches working to be effective. And different pitches can take a different toll on the pitcher. Former major league pitcher Kerry Wood, for example, struck out 20 batters in one game, in just his 5th major league start. He later tore the ulnar collateral ligament in his right elbow, and had to undergo “Tommy John Surgery,” which involves transplanting a ligament from either a cadaver or another part of the body onto the afflicted area (pitching a baseball is a very unnatural act). Wood’s team, the Cubs, told him to stop throwing sliders, as they generate more stress on the elbow that some other pitches do.
So it’s not always a matter of stamina and control. Number of pitches working and the types of pitches also factor in.
Are you asking about starting pitchers vs relief pitchers, or closers vs other relief pitchers, or both?
Relief pitchers in general, and closers in particular, often throw harder/faster than starting pitchers, because they know they’ll only be in for an inning or two, and they don’t have to worry about pacing themselves. They could, perhaps, come in in the sixth or seventh inning and pitch several innings, but they’re typically not used to pitching so many innings in a row, they often have a more limited repertoire of pitches than a starter (which may put them at a disadvantage if the same batter faces them more than once in the same game), and if they’re used too much in one game they won’t be available in the next.
Some have argued that a manager should be willing to use his best reliever, who is typically the closer, at any crucial moment, rather than always saving him for a “save situation” in the ninth inning. Against this, others argue that managers and pitchers appreciate when pitchers have well-defined roles and know what sort of situations they’re likely to be used in. And some believe that there’s something about the pressure of pitching in a save situation that not all pitchers are equally adept at handling.
I’m sure that there’s a lot more that some of our more knowledgeable posters could say, or link to; but that’s a start.
If it’s unhittable, then I guess that means it breaks somewhere so fast that hitters can’t find it? But then you are implying that if they go for more than one inning, the batters get used to it and can tell where it’s breaking?
That would imply that batters must communicate with each other in the dugout and tell each other what the guy is throwing and where to swing when he throws it? Am I correct in this?
But then if they do talk, why can’t the first guy tell the second guy on deck or the third guy what his “unhittable” pitch is? Then wouldn’t the closer’s unhittableness be nullified by the second batter of the inning in which he starts?
Further, with the advent of videotape, can’t a guy just look at Mariano and know his cut fastball and where it usually goes? Therefore when he sees a fastball, he knows that it’s probably going to cut.
Also, is it more a matter of pitch choice vs. pitch location that gets a batter out? Because even if your batter knows where your “unhittable” pitch will be, if you throw him something he’s not expecting, that’s just a good a strike as him falling for your best pitch. That would mean that the catcher is really the player in this chess game, because he’s giving the signs…?
Sorry to be so dense, but I’m glad I have you experts.
How does this work? It’s not like a pitcher and his pitch are a secret. The game film is out, everyone knows what a pitcher can do. How would a one-pitch pitcher be able to work for 1-2 innings but not 4? Since you play in series, its not as if one batter isn’t ever going to get a crack at him again. And since I’m sure they have game film on every pitch, it’s not like everyone won’t know his tendencies.
When Rivera first got his cutter working, and for most of the rest of his career, opposing batters said they KNEW exactly what he was going to throw, and they still couldn’t hit it. Mariano was sometimes, but very rarely, asked to get more than three outs, coming in in the 8th inning.
In order to hit a ball going near 100mph, it’s not good enough to “know” what’s being thrown and where it’s going to break, you have to practice.
These guys practice against pitches that are not Rivera’s cutter. If nobody else (more or less) throws the cutter like Rivera does, their only practice is when they face him in a game.
How often can you face him in a game? He faced about 300 batters per year, if that was all AL batters, then each batter could expect to see his cutter maybe twice a year. You see a starting pitcher more than that in a single game.
Then, if he’s got to pace himself for a full game, his awesome cutter is perhaps a lot more average, which means he’s not separating himself from the crowd, and the batters will have seen many more pitches “like” his cutter and be better prepared to hit it.
This is what separates a good player from a great player. I’m a Giants fan; for several years Sergio Romo had the nastiest slider you’ve ever seen (he still does, when it’s working…but it doesn’t work quite as often as it used to). For a right-handed batter it was essentially impossible to hit, as it would look like it was coming right over the plate, but at the last second it would drop down and outside. Batters knew what pitch he was going to throw, and he’d throw it 3,4, sometimes 5 times in an at-bat, but they couldn’t help swinging at it.
For an example from another sport, look at John Stockton and Karl Malone in basketball. They played together for the Utah Jazz for 17 years, I believe, and during that time span they ran the pick-and-roll play about 87,000 times. It’s just what they did. Everyone knew what play they were going to run virtually every time they came down the court, and they ran it just as expected, and they were successful with it, again and again, and again and again and again…
It’s one thing to know what your opponent is going to do; it’s another thing altogether to stop them from doing it.
In the not-too-distant past, it wasn’t at all uncommon for closers to work more than the 9th inning. In 1981, Rollie Fingers won both the Cy Young and the AL MVP for the Brewers. He pitched in 78 innings over 47 games, essentially averaging 1 2/3 innings per appearance. In those 47 appearances, he was 6-3, with 28 saves…so in 10 of his appearances, he wound up not being the “pitcher of record” in any way.
But, today, the conventional wisdom in the game is that you rarely, if ever, use your closer in any other situation other than in the 9th, in a save opportunity.
As has been noted, it’s one thing for a batter to know what pitch it’s coming. It’s another thing to dial into what it’s like to swing against that pitch today. When batters get multiple at-bats against a pitcher, they get more opportunities to get their timing down. If you only see that reliever once in this game, you have a limited window to adjust your swing.
And, yes, being able to go all-out for a short period of time (an inning or two) plays into it, as well. The “Baseball Preview” issue of Sports Illustrated this year talked about how there are more and more hard-throwing relievers (not just closers, but set-up men), and teams are using more pitchers per game than ever before. The combination of the two* has helped lead to the lowest offensive numbers in the game since 1968 (after that season, they lowered the mound to reduce the pitchers’ dominance).
*
That said, I also suspect that PED testing has also taken a fair chunk of offense out of the game.*
Yes, but why can’t they just not swing? What closer is going to throw three real fastballs down the middle when they are known for their unhittable pitch? In basketball, you couldn’t stop Malone and Stockton because of their athletic ability. In baseball, if you know that the nasty cutter is frequently used, all you have to do is not swing and the pitcher’s now at a disadvantage. I am not claiming to know what I’m talking about!!! Please tell me why my argument doesn’t make sense?
And if they couldn’t help swinging at it, then they need to learn that sometimes you’re better off taking a pitch. If the batter’s goal is to get on base, and the pitcher’s goal is to get you to swing and miss, doesn’t that automatically mean the batter should let the pitcher just do his thing and keep getting balls? How much of this is actual skill vs. guessing and psyching out the other player? Like I said upthread, the nastiest slider or cutter in the world means nothing if the batter outguesses you!
Closers may need to pitch every day and they have a work-out and warm-up schedule designed to keep them from wearing out their arms. They’ve been extremely specialized and managers don’t want to mess around with what works.
Most closers throw heat in one form or another. They may get the side out in a dozen pitches or less, or maybe it will take 20. If they’re coming off 20 pitches in the 8th inning and the 9th is running on they may lose that heat. Closers can’t choose their pitches to save their arms the way a starting pitcher does.
Is there really that much more difficult to throw at 97 miles per hour than at 90 miles an hour? It’s seven miles an hour of difference. How can a player throwing at 90 last 7 innings but a player throwing at 97 can only last one? He should at least be able to go 3 or 4, right?
A straight overhand fastball comes in with little or no movement while a cutter may break (more of a twitch) 3-4 inches. At thirty feet away (when a batter starts swinging), you can’t see the difference. The break doesn’t become visible until the swing is under way and can’t be changed.
ETA: there’s also a difference in velocity. A 1 mph change will mean a miss or weak hit even if the swing is dead on.
Even if you guess right, aiming for where a ball is going has a margin of error.
There’s a big gap in the power needed to throw 97 vs. 90. Someone who throws 90 might not even be able to reach 97.
Any pitcher can only throw as fast as he can control the pitch.
Any attempt to force a higher velocity(over-throwing) will decrease accuracy.
A good example was Sandy Koufax. His early career was marred by poor control due to his attempts to deliberately throw hard. When he started easing up, his control improved greatly and he still had an overpowering fastball.
A team has 5 starting pitchers. Each one can throw 100+ pitches in a game because he’ll get at least 4 days of rest before he pitches in a game again.
That team only has one closer. He may have to close out 3 games in a row. You can’t go max effort, or even almost max effort, for 3 innings (40+ pitches) and expect to throw again the next day.
That’s why teams these days try to have a set up guy who is basically another closer to go the 8th inning.
He probably can…but it is, in fact, fatiguing enough that he probably won’t be able pitch that hard again in the next day or two (which is what you want your relief pitchers to be able to do).
Many starting pitchers can throw in the mid-to-high 90s, and they typically pitch for 5 to 7 innings in a game. But, then, they get four to five days off, to rest their arms and regain their strength.
OK, got it. So now the one outstanding question which hasn’t been addressed yet. Can you please look upthread and comment on what I wrote about skill vs. guessing? Specifically:
"Yes, but why can’t they just not swing? What closer is going to throw three real fastballs down the middle when they are known for their unhittable pitch? In basketball, you couldn’t stop Malone and Stockton because of their athletic ability. In baseball, if you know that the nasty cutter is frequently used, all you have to do is not swing and the pitcher’s now at a disadvantage. I am not claiming to know what I’m talking about!!! Please tell me why my argument doesn’t make sense?
And if they couldn’t help swinging at it, then they need to learn that sometimes you’re better off taking a pitch. If the batter’s goal is to get on base, and the pitcher’s goal is to get you to swing and miss, doesn’t that automatically mean the batter should let the pitcher just do his thing and keep getting balls? How much of this is actual skill vs. guessing and psyching out the other player? Like I said upthread, the nastiest slider or cutter in the world means nothing if the batter outguesses you! "
Thanks.
Because that “unhittable pitch” is likely still going to be a strike, more often than not. If a batter just decides to not swing, he’s banking on the pitcher missing the strike zone four times before he gets it in the strike zone three times…and, against most major league pitchers (and particularly against elite closers), that’s a bad bet.