The Roman Catholic Church on Viagra?

Great Debates
41

South Africa is a modern country with cities and air conditioning and everything, I think was MrDibble’s quibble. It’s got the largest economy in Africa, and the 28th largest economy in the world. It’s not where the starving children of Africa mostly reside (although I assume it does have its own share of poor people, they’re not covered in dust poor.)

I see no support for that assertion in this context. I’m not at all a fan of the RC church’s teachings on sexuality and health, mind you, but it’s not about thinking people are ignorant and childish.

42

Indeed. One might note that the South African government provides a child support grant of R270 (about $35) per month per child to families below a certain income level. That is not a lot of money (though bear in mind that the cost of living is lower in SA than in the US) but it should be enough to prevent children from starving.

43

In order to understand the Church’s position one must come to terms with its essentialism. There is something that it is like to be human, discoverable through observation and reflection, and that something doesn’t change from person to person. A human male should (supposedly!) be attracted to women because his excellence lies among other things in marriage and family — to the extent that a man is gay he fails to be a proper exemplar of his type.

As I understand the theory, anyway. I’m not going to defend it as truth.

You’re still misunderstanding what’s meant by natural. It isn’t about going back and figuring out what someone raised by wolves would do; it’s about figuring out what’s right and wrong by examining something and discerning what is proper for it (as opposed, say, to divine revelation). If you like just ignore the word entirely and substitute good or appropriate.

44

I’m going to quibble with this, maybe pedantically; natural is an important part of the terminology of scholastic moral theory (the “natural law”). I’m sympathetic to the layperson who tends to believe it refers to what happens in the wild but Catholic philosophers and theologians will keep using the word, so I think it’s best not to ignore it.

45

But you’re willing to use it as an argument online?

It matters to those of us who would rather people didn’t get a wholly mistaken impression of our countries. That and it’s a continuation of the mindset that “Africa” is one monolithic entity, that it doesn’t matter what the internal divisions of it are, it can all be lumped together really.

46

I think that’s a very good quibble, actually. That very quibble is where The Pill failed to attract official RC approval. The scientists thought “natural” in the sense the OP does, and the sense I used it, and that their invention was extending the natural state women are in most of the month. The church was using the word “natural” in an entirely different sense, the sense you articulated so well. :slight_smile:

47

This hijack probably deserves its own thread. But on the subject: although monavis was probably wrong to implicate South Africa specifically as the mascot for poverty on its content, let’s not give the implication (probably unintentional) that things are rosy there; SA has its share of poverty and hunger. E.g. here, here. That latter is a South African Regional Poverty Network report, albeit a few years old, which begins

48

VIAGRA

May cause vision problems.

49

I have nothing against South Africans, and I apologize if it sounds like I do(or did) It was my understanding of the stories told over the years and Ads that I saw were showing chiodren starving with their glassy eyes and I wondered why Birth control could not have been made availible to their parents.

My Grandmother lived in Johannesburg for 7 years in the late 1800’s During the Boer War. It was my understanding the it was in South Africa, since I make no claim to be always right I am grateful to someone who proves me wrong. I care for truth, and I am more than happy to have it shown to me. There are other third world countries that also have so much poverty and a lot is caused by the lack of education,and politics,or being controled by guilt or shame from a belief system.

50

I think we are getting way off track about why the RC doesn’t allow Birth control,and does allow other things considered unnatural. I realize there are different ways of looking at what is considered of nature, and what is not. But I still feel that if a couple have children or not is up to them, if one believes it is a sin to not have children that is their right,but I believe a child deserves a happy and healthy life, and a parent who tries to do this for the Children they want and love is their right, and I also belief that having children you don’t want, abuse, or can’t care for peoperly is a worse wrong then preventing a conception or pregnancy in the first place. It should be up to the people involved.

51

The images you ses of starving children with glassy eyes (as well as mostly not coming from South Africa) are mostly the result of famine, not overpopulation. Famine has a variety of causes, but few of them are addressed through contraception.

Birth control is widely available in many parts of Africa (though not doubt there are places where it is not). The high African fertitility rate is not explained by the unavailability of birth control so much as by a disinclination to use it.

52

The fact that they live where they cannot feed thier children is one good reason to use Birth Control.If they are starving because of famine then it is the same as over population, just as a family that would have more children than can be taken care of would think of the suffering the children they bring into the world under such circumstance, would use some method of birth control, or even have a vasectomy ot tubes tied ,depending on which sex finds it appropriate.I wonder if they were taught the fact that their children are the one’s who suffer the most not having enough to eat,or the parents would also starve perhaps they could understand that just having children in such a circumstance is not fair to the child, and is harming the parents as well. I would think that the parents love their children as much as any other person and could understand that the children living in such a condition is not being responsible parents.

53

Add in a sixer of beer and the Roman Catholic Church’s wife is in for quite a night.

54

Poverty, sure, no argument here. But famine, or (outside individual parental neglect cases, I’m sure) the typical image of camps of kids with marasmus, Kwashiorkor and ascites, not a damn.

55

You do realise that drought can strike historically fertile places, right? And sometimes there’s no safe place for people to move to. Civil war and conflict combined with drought are the major cause of African famine, not overpopulation.

56

monvais, I understand you’re from an entirely different culture and history than the people you’re talking about. So am I. Here’s a thought experiment.

Imagine you live in a country without Medicare. Without Social Security. Without a bank accessible to you, which isn’t really a big deal because you make very little money. You have a few fields in which you grow food for your family, and maybe you have some spare to sell at the market once a week. You might get some money, but you might just trade your extra food for cloth, or batteries or other things you need.

Your “retirement account” is your children. Your children will care for you when you get too old to work those fields, and too tired to walk 15 miles to the market. Your children will share their food with you, make sure you have clothing and that you get to spend time with your grandchildren.

Unfortunately, you know that some of your children won’t live to be adults. Others will move to their spouses home and take care of their in-laws instead of taking care of you. Some will leave your village to go to school, and maybe move to the US and send some money back (money which you can’t really spend on anything, because the latest political uprising means that no one is bringing trucks into your area anymore.)

Wouldn’t it make sense, in such a lifestyle, to have a lot more kids than we have here? Kids are a woman’s insurance policy and retirement account all rolled into one. Without a lot of kids, there’s a good chance that no one will be around to take care of her when she can’t take care of herself.

It’s a different world. While I’m not an absolute cultural relativist (I do believe that there are some things which are just WRONG, culture be damned), in this case, you have to understand the economy, medical system and political system of a country to know what decisions would be best for those people. They aren’t the same as ours, unless you have some plan to give them better prenatal and childhood medical care, social safety nets, better banks and less political instability. In other words, if their life doesn’t look like ours, the decisions that are good for them won’t look like ours.

57

My point is that if a drought or any circumstance happens then it would seem irresponsible to bring another child into the world that can’t be cared for,if one has 3 children who are already starving, then it will not bring more food to the mouths of the already concieved children, and in such a case one who cares for their children would not intentionally bring in another. If it would be the first child the woman would not be in good health herself to be able to carry a healthy child. If there is a famine, then there are too many people to feed at such a time, so it would be the same as over population.

58

As a person who live in a household with more children than could be properly fed, I can well under stand the plight of the poor. During the depression we did get food from the government,but then when that stopped, we lived for many years on potatoes, and burnt flour gravy, bisquits and honey. Some days it was just coffe and dill pickles I also can understand the strain on my parents who took out their frustrations on us,they believed birth control was sinful, but apparently abusing one’s children was not!. When I was an Adult I only earned $12.00 a week, my rent was $9.00 and I had all of $3,00 to eat, or buy any necessities, my room mate bought a loaf of bread and a jar of penut butter, I bought a head of lettuce and some blue chees,we shared our food.

We didn’t starve,but we were far from over weight either. I wanted to leave home at Age 7, at 10 I was walking around town trying to have someone take me in,I was fortunate enough to get a job at 13 and work my way through high school as a mother’s helper.

There was no way we could have supported our parents in their old age.We didn’t have the education or the money to support them. My brothers gave my mother all the money they earned even when they were in the WW2,but when they married they could no longer support the family.

59

I could also add that I lived many years without money for a doctor,no government help, or insurance, and just suffered through any illiness until I was finally in a better circumstance. That is one of the reason’s I made sure my children would have proper food,clothing etc.I didn’t depend on my children to support me in my old age, and neither did my husband, we lived below our income and saved for our retirement, never ever thought that our children should be burdened by supporting us, when they have their own familes to support!

60

And that’s the cultural difference you’re not seeing. A woman living in Sudan would think, “Of course my children will support me - I’m family!” They have a whole different set of realities to deal with, and they make their assumptions and decisions accordingly.

These women know what causes pregnancy. They’re not ignorant or stupid. Most of the time, they know how to prevent pregnancy, whether that be by extended breastfeeding, knowing their fertility cycles, or contraceptives from a local clinic. But they often don’t *want *to prevent pregnancy. Preventing pregnancy is a really bad idea, in the world they live in. Prevent pregnancy, and you’ll have starving homeless elderly people instead of starving children. Things might always get better next week, and those starving children may have enough food. So you have more kids in the hope that you’ll manage somehow (just like people here do, honestly), and when some of them die, you cry, you mourn, you feel the loss, and then you move on with your life. Children dying, while always sad, is not the worst thing in the world, especially when it’s so common. And if your culture places more value and honor on productive adults and experienced elders than it does on children, then having dying children is preferable to having dying adults and elders.