The sad, strange case of Akmal Shaikh

Great Debates
21

Just to complete the correction others have made, Dahmer was murdered in prison by another inmate. To be specific, he was beaten to death with a bar taken from a weight machine. He was not executed.

I hadn’t heard of Shaikh before so I can’t say much about the specifics of his case. But I’m completely opposed to the death penalty, and frankly, I doubt the Chinese government care if Shaikh knew what he was doing. I don’t think they’re overly concerned with niceties like that, and the harsh penalties they give for drugs just reinforce that opinion.

22

UK officials have confirmed that China has executed Shaikh.

23

British man said to be mentally ill executed in China

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24

That’s a lot for a population that only encompasses one percent of the total population.
In counting criminally insane would you also count sociopaths?

25

Let me provide some broad sweeping Chinese context that may make this outcome easier to understand.

-China has a LOT of people. Hard to understand if you’re not here or someplace equally densely populated. The value of a human life is much lower.
-The average person in China has grown up with the death penalty and accepts it as normal
-there’s no widespread religious issue with the death penalty
-China for the most part is still a poor country and people don’t believe in lifetime incarceration
-There is punishment and rehabilitation
-No sympathy for international drug smugglers, especially when it’s *pounds *of heroin. Not like this might be for personal use.

Regarding Akmal Shaikh:
-If he really has such noticeable mental problems, then why was he not institutionalized in the UK?
-If he really has such noticeable mental problems, then how did he travel internationally to multiple countries before flying from Khazakstan to China?
-If he were to be imprisoned in China, his special needs would not be met or would cost a lot (even if China offered such services in prison, said services would not be bi-lingual).
-If he were imprisoned in China without rehabilitation, then what’s the point?
-If he is released to the UK, maybe the government is afraid of looking weak but it’s more likely that the government is afraid of sending the message that it’s okay for Westerners to smuggle drugs into China.

26

A good question, but then again, it’s not unheard of for people with mental illnesses to go without help.

This doesn’t justify executing him.

A few potential points: he could be evaluated by professionals, he could appeal the case, it would be more just, and oh yes, he wouldn’t be dead.

Again, this does not justify executing him. I appreciate the perspective you’re offering but it doesn’t do much for this case. People in the US have grown up with the death penalty (it was briefly outlawed in the 1970s but has been around for a long time), and much of the opposition to it is non-religious. And on the whole I don’t think the US is all that sympathetic to criminals, including people smuggling drugs.

27

I am not in favour of the death penalty but when you hear some stories on the news it does make you question your own stance from time to time. The fact of the matter is that some nations do still engage in this kind of treatment. The world knows of China’s preference for it as a deterrent as well as it’s many other so called ‘human rights abuses’. That is China’s laws and it is their right to make and determine their own laws, no matter how severe or abhorrent it may seem to other parts of the world.

I am also curious as to where all these claims of ‘mental illness’ have come from concerning this guy. If you do a web search you can easily find numerous snippets of information on his past. He was a ‘former cab firm manager’ and apparently went to Poland ‘to try and start an airline’.

The claims of mental illness and being duped have all come from his family and relatives after his trial and subsequent guilty verdict. he’s not the first and certainly not the last criminal who would be claiming innocence. Prisons, it is said, are full of ‘innocent’ people! It’s par for the course when someone gets caught with a haul of drugs as big as this - “it wasn’t mine”!!

There’s nothing in this story that convinces me the guy is innocent, in spite of the claims by his family. What’s worse, if the guy was as mentally unstable as they are now claiming, then WHY did his family even allow him to leave the country? Under the Mental Health Act family members can have one of their loved ones ‘sectioned’ if they are such a danger to themselves - so why did they not do this before he left Britain if he was so mentally unstable?
It all smacks of lies and deviousness to me, and tarnishes the chances of genuine mentally ill people receiving fair trials in foreign jurisdictions.

Let’s not forget, as China itself stated, the man was carrying 4,030 grams (4 kg) of heroin, enough to potentially kill ( or seriously harm or destroy) 26,800 people. This guy knew what he was doing. I would be more inclined to conclude that the lure of high profits in the drugs trade - which would be handy for his funding attempts to start an airline, was a more believeable reason for him smuggling drugs rather than some fairy story that he was going there on the promise of being made into some kind of pop star. It should also be noted that there is apparently no history of the guy ever being a singer or even so much as having sung at a karaoke event. Not to mention that when your suitcase is 4kg heavier, you KNOW it!

The public debates and charade that are being conducted over this single event are almost stomach churning. He took a chanve and got caught, simple as that. No sane person (pardon the pun!) should expect anything less than protests of innocence because that is exactly what courts hear day and daily in drug trials all over the world.

This guy had been doing a fair amount of travelling and had certain ambitions which would no doubt require heavy financial investment - hardly the kind of behaviour we typically see in mentally unstable people. Had be been caught wandering around some airport rambling incoherently prior to boarding any one of the many flights he had taken over that period, his story might be believable. Sadly, it seems more true that the only question we should be asking is whether he was a mule or one of the big hitters, and given the amount I would be more inclined to believe he got involved in drugs with the intention of making big fat fast profits to further his own ambitions. In a time of world wide financial squeezing, any such ambitions would need someone to come up with their own financiers or their own way of getting hold of the cash - and it seems that Mr Akmal Shaikh had made up his mind how he intended to get his capital investment.

He intended to get it by spreading misery to thousands of other families - so whilst his punishment might seem harsh, it could also be argued that 26,800 families have been spared the agony of watching their loved ones become the victims of drug pushers like Mr Shaikh.

Instead of the world feeling sorry for Mr Shaikh, it should be reminded of the evil trade that he clearly choose to become a part of. I don’t buy any of this hog wash that he was mentally ill.

28

I can just imagine how the Chinese determined how many people 4kg of heroin can kill. There’s probably 26,800 peasants lying in a field somewhere now.

29

Who knows … but it’s hardly an unbelievable figure. At 4030 grams, its enough for plenty of street level deals. Depending on the purity of it, that 4 kg could double, treble, quadruple or even more … so 26,800 might not be as far fetched as some may think.

30

You could also say if you halved the lethal dose and gave it away, you’d have 53,600 happy heroin addicts somewhere… you know, “the greater good” and that?

The main point is, China is well known for not giving a shit about individuals, so that was a shitty card for them to play.

31

I bet if he’d been taking the stuff out of China they’d have been more likely to have allowed the UK to take him back, but this is highly embarrassing as it shows there is demand in their own country, like everywhere else, near enough.

And here the point is - no man should have to die at the hands of a government just because the world hasn’t yet learned how to curb the demand for illicit drugs.

32

Indeed; it’s a difficult stance to take when faced with a case like this.

That said, the fact that we or China take this stance and the rest of the world knows about it does not automatically confer approval or an ethical or legal ‘right’ to enforce those laws on nationals of other countries simply because those nationals choose to visit China and the United States. The international community has a ‘right’ to protect their citizens as well.

One of the articles I read made an interesting point with regard to this:

It is difficult to expect someone with mental illness to have the clarity to argue their illness, much less in a foreign language with no representation. As this man was estranged from his family and living homeless in a foreign country, I don’t find it difficult to believe his mental illness was real. Especially with documented evidence from a photojournalist. In addition, an interview with the man’s ex girlfriend in Poland said something about his claiming to have won £1M in some rambling letter, as well as the incredible number of emails to Tony Blair, George Bush and Paul McCartney (that one has me scratching my head some). Your point that the man left his home and family to start an airline business in Poland without any money does not exactly speak loudly to sanity.

No, they came from elsewhere. See above.

I’m not sure of your point here. Are you saying that every mentally unstable person is accounted for, are never ‘allowed’ to roam far from home and therefore there’s no possiblity this man could be mentally unstable? Are the British airport authorities also responsible for making sure bipolar people aren’t allowed to travel?

I am not convinced that your opinion is entirely based in fact. It is not proven he ‘clearly chose’ to become a part of the drug trade. He was traveling into an area in which customs is very thorough and carrying 4kg of heroin undisguised in a suitcase. That doesn’t sound especially sane.

A forensic psychologist has said that Shaikh’s behavior was likely caused by mental illness. China grants leniency in such cases, but they refused to allow the prisoner to be examined. So again, I am not sure how you can be certain that his mental illness is ‘hogwash.’

33

I would think so, yes.

34

Yup, you’d have to have balls of steel or be mentally unstable to knowingly take that risk. But, if you knew that once someone was pulled out, the next 30 or so people got through trouble free?

The likelihood is, the guy behind him in the queue was wheeling 40kg through. Good work, China. :dubious:

35

Legally, I think it does.

China is a sovereign state. That means they get to set their own laws, and those who enter China have to take into account that China has done so.

Different countries do things differently. It is not necessarily a slam-dunk that executing someone who smuggles 9 pounds of heroin is a violation of human rights in the way that FGM is.

That goes to a distinction that exists (I believe) in US law, between “mentally ill” and “legally insane”. You are legally insane in the US if your mental disease left you no choice but to act as you did.

If he was as nutty as they say he was, then why did his family allow him to travel to China, where things are looked at differently? Not to mention that it is also possible that his family and various DP opponents are over-stating his insanity to garner sympathy for him. How likely that is, I couldn’t say, but it is at least possible. What often happens with cases of the DP is that what we get in the press is mostly the defense side, presented almost unquestioned.

OTOH, drug smuggling is one way to raise money. IYSWIM.

I think the problem is that there is no intermediate status between “responsible adult” and “someone who needs a keeper”. It is, unfortunately, either/or. If this guy is nuts enough to escape execution, he is nuts enough that his family should have kept him out of a country where they execute drug smugglers. If he is sane enough to travel to such a country, he is sane enough to be responsible for a crime he commits. Or so it works out in this case.

I don’t know that I would take “getting caught” as definitive proof of insanity, or else no one would ever be convicted of a crime. Certainly a lot of criminals are stupid, in the UK as well as around the world (in my experience). That does not necessarily imply that they are not responsible for their behavior.

I presume the forensic psychologist you mention was not allowed to examine Mr. Shaikh either.

Regards,
Shodan

36

This is probably going to end up badly but…

I’m generally not in favor of the death penalty here in the US (too many mistakes) but IF it is to be applied, then I’m more in favor of the mentally ill getting it than not.

Speaking from an atheist’s perspective (sorry atheists, I know the religionists are going to just assume more stuff about us on account of this post :smack:), I don’t have an intrinsic fondness for life, nor do I think death is bad. If this guy was ill, then I see this as putting him out of his misery. This death was a good thing then, in my eyes, because I would never want to live like that. I would find it difficult to take anyone’s argument seriously if they posited that this guy was more happy than unhappy in his life, so none of this “but he would want to live like that!” stuff. Thus, ending it wasn’t a big deal in my eyes, nor should it be from his perspective. His family’s the one that’s really suffering, but it looks like they had plenty of chances to get him help but were unable/unwilling to do so. Hell, if he were only informed of it 24 hours prior, then that cuts down on the amount of time he has to worry about it and suffer through it.

Plus, like China Guy said, if he couldn’t be rehabbed, then what’s the point of keeping him alive and criminally dangerous in jail? And if he could be cured, he wouldn’t exactly be living with the shame of his crime would he?

37

Hence the word ‘likely.’

38

I would have thought my point was self explanatory in that it refers to his family’s concerns and the actions they could have taken if they believed he was so mentally unstable. My comments did not relate to any aspect of the UK authorities.

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We could spend all day searching the web for supporting stories to back our respective viewpoints, but at the end of the day it would all be futile as the man is now dead.

Nobody reported that he went to Poland with no money that I know of, nor did they evidence whether or not he took any great steps to conceal the drugs. Running with that vien, and on the hypothesis that he was duped by gangland druglords, do you think they would have been so casual with 4kg of their own drugs? I don’t think so. These guys are usually quite smart and sophisticated when it comes to their ‘property’. 4kg is a large quantity of drugs in cash terms - in UK valuation terms it is around a quarter of a million pounds according to valuations given to other known drug hauls. I struggle to believe that any drug baron would entrust such an amount to just any virtually unknown (to them) mentally unstable person. If he was as obviously unstable as other supposed eye witness accounts, then that would have been equally obvious to any drug baron entrusting that quantity to his care for the journey. If they had taken time to befriend or get to know the guy prior to the deed itself, his symptoms would have been even more obvious. Sure, drugs barons are not always rational people themselves, but even so, given the amount involved I find all of these scenarios difficult to believe.

Assuming that Mr Shaikh may have had some delusions of grandeur or other lofty pursuits - which in itself is not evidence of mental illness - then it would seem more credible that he conceived the idea himself as a way to try and make a quick buck. On the face of it, I would be inclined to believe the guy knew what he was doing and took a chance, whether that was through desperation, delusions of grandeur or otherwise. The fact is we know people DO take these chances all over the world, even in places where they know that if caught they could face the death penalty - and many of us would agree that such an act would be insane to try, but does not of itself - just because you committed an act which to the average person would seem insane - mean that you are in fact insane or suffer from any other form of mental illness.

None of this of course means I agree that he got a fair trial or that China is a lovely nation to it’s citizens! I don’t, but then, please tell me if you know of any country that is so benevolent to it’s citizens because I don’t know of any. The US and UK are just as guilty of human rights abuses as China, they are just better and more insistent liars whereas China is a bit more in-your-face and upfront about it.

I also believe that if he was caught in the UK that any attempts to portray him as delusional or mentally unstable would have been as vigorously opposed by the UK prosecuting authorities.

39

Thank you for addressing my original question.

I am against the practice of the death penalty here for the same reason. I’m also an atheist, and much of what you said has merit. I think my largest question still remains: where does our government’s responsibility lay with respect to the death penalty and mentally unstable criminals, and how do we draw the line between ‘dangerous’ and ‘harmless’? As I said, Shaikh seemed more a danger to himself than to others: no history of violence, prone to delusions.

40

I think the UK should take a stance on this purely as a ‘fuck you’ to China, to think they had the balls to say ‘we hope this doesn’t damage bilateral relations between the two of us’ packaged as a thinly veiled threat warning us of the consequences of protesting their act of the death penalty.

But then again, this Government and its institutions show time and time and time again that they have absolutely no balls whatsoever.

I expect the Government reaction to this to be over in about a weeks time.