The sad, strange case of Akmal Shaikh

[Syntropy]

@Jamil0458

We could spend all day searching the web for supporting stories to back our respective viewpoints, but at the end of the day it would all be futile as the man is now dead.

Well, no, it wouldn’t be futile if it meant you recognized that you were not in possession of all the facts at the time you formed your opinion.

Nobody reported that he went to Poland with no money that I know of, nor did they evidence whether or not he took any great steps to conceal the drugs.

This rather proves my point. The article I cited states he went to Poland with little or no money and lived both in homeless shelters and on the streets. It’s easy to reach a conclusion that ‘feels’ right because it supports your position. You didn’t look any further than you needed in order to make the conclusion you wanted.

None of this of course means I agree that he got a fair trial or that China is a lovely nation to it’s citizens! I don’t, but then, please tell me if you know of any country that is so benevolent to it’s citizens because I don’t know of any. The US and UK are just as guilty of human rights abuses as China, they are just better and more insistent liars whereas China is a bit more in-your-face and upfront about it.

Yes, I’m struggling with that as well. So what you’re saying here is because other countries have done bad things, that means it’s okay for China to do them too?

As I said upthread, we are not discussing the occasional death penalty case. China is responsible for 72% of the world’s executions, more than three times all other countries combined including the United States. That isn’t just ‘a bit more in your face about it.’

I also believe that if he was caught in the UK that any attempts to portray him as delusional or mentally unstable would have been as vigorously opposed by the UK prosecuting authorities.

Likely. But in the UK he would not have been facing the death penalty, and he would probably have received a mental evaluation. That is the entire point. I do not dispute that the Chinese government thinks this case was handled correctly. I am certain it does.

[even_sven]

Another result of the “lots of people” theme (which in my opinion is largely a manufactured sentiment that serves as a handy excuse when people feel like they are getting shafted) is that people with disabilities don’t get a lot of sympathy. For example, it is my understanding that people with disabilities are not allowed into universities. That’s just how it is. Born with a limp? Well, too bad. No college for you. Only the able bodied, please.

The reasoning? There are only so many university spots. Why should someone who is less than perfect in any way take one of those coveted spots? If it’s between an able-bodied person and a disabled person, why shouldn’t the able-bodied person get first dibs, given how stiff the competition is? Shouldn’t these rare spots go to the people who can make the most of them, and wouldn’t a perfect bodied person automatically be more capable of doing that than a disabled person?

People excuse it away by saying that there are special universities for the disabled where they can “feel more comfortable” or something. But it’s hard to hide the orphanages full of perfectly good children abandon over nothing more than a gimpy arm or a facial birthmark. It’s hard to hide that fact that except for beggars, you pretty never see wheelchairs or blind people or people with artificial limbs or whatever. The striking absence of physical imperfections can be outright creepy. Where the hell are all these people?

So I don’t think China is going to get worked up about a mental disability. If anything, that might count as more of a reason to execute him in peoples’ minds. No room for losers here!

As for my opinion, yeah China can do whatever they want, but we have the right to call them jerks. Afghanistan was jerks for making women wear burkas. Was anyone saying that we had no right to even discuss their laws? Of course not. Bad people doing bad things are bad people doing bad things, no matter where they are in the world. And there are plenty of bad people doing bad things in that area of the world these days. I wish China would realize that talking bad about bad people doing bad things is not an attack on the great and glorious Chinese culture or an indication that we’d like a second round of imperialism, but rather just a human-to-human “hey man, don’t be a jerk” kind of thing that doesn’t need to be taken as some huge insult.

[Jamil0458]

@Syntropy

This rather proves my point. The article I cited states he went to Poland with little or no money and lived both in homeless shelters and on the streets. It’s easy to reach a conclusion that ‘feels’ right because it supports your position. You didn’t look any further than you needed in order to make the conclusion you wanted.

Actually I did read the various stories, including the ones you had various links to - I missed the part about little or no money in that report in the telegraph, but it wouldn’t change my point of view. I still think the guy went in to this with his eyes wide open and with the intention of making money.

The stories of crazy emails coupled with some of his lawyers own comments make interesting reading. Some of the emails are actually quoted, but there is nothing too strange in them. Obscure paragraphs have been lifted out here and there to support viewpoints imho - but on the face of it, there are many many people who write to governments, celebrities and anyone who will listen with their own apparent ‘delusions’. A dream might seem delusional to some, but to the person with the dream or ambition, it is their dream or ambition. Some of these people have even made the ‘big time’ in those endeavours, and are therefore not considered delusional, on the contrary, they would be dubbed as ‘entreprenurial’ and ‘determined’.

It was also interesting to note that Stephen Fry - reportedly a sufferer of a Bi-Polar disorder - was one of the people campaigning against this. Ironically, under UK law, a person who suffers from a mental illness is not considered to be of legal capacity to enter into any contracts - which Mr Fry clearly does very often, currently fronting various adverts on UK and Satellite TV, together with his various other TV appearances, all of which no doubt involved healthy contractual negotiations.

If anything, this only goes to show that people who may well have some of these quirks of character which can now be given a label in this day and age are clearly people who can make informed decisions, whether they be good decisions or bad ones, and even whether or not they are of legal capacity to make them!

Shaikh run his own mini-cab business not so very long ago. His life only seems to have fallen apart after he apparently got caught for sexually harrassing one of his female employees and was order to pay her compensation. The fallout from that with his wife and family because it was reported would no doubt have left him somewhat isolated, but these things happen. He went from a very ‘charismatic’ character to someone who had made some very bad decisions, from the sexual harrassment to drug smuggling … and got caught - unfortunately in his case he got caught in a country that doesn’t take kindly to drug smuggling. Maybe he already knew this, and maybe he already knew that China had not executed any european citizen in over 50 years and decided to take that chance.

Here’s a thought though … on the hypothesis that he was mentally unstable and was duped, you have to admit that the timing of the act was pretty significant too. At a time when China was getting ready to be invaded by the world of western scrutiny on the run up to the Beijing Olympics, what a story that would have made about China’s security on the Olympics if he had actually managed to get through with the drugs … and then we discovered he was being duped by others seeking to expose the apparent lax security measures.

There are many many ways we could all put spin on this story and our respective viewpoints.

Getting to the thrust of your point though, I agree that he should at least have been given the chance of a mental evaluation. Maybe China considered that this was unneccessary or that the guy was just faking it because he had been caught. We don’t have any apparent guidance on how they make these determinations and what procedures are supposed to be followed.

Mr Shaikh appears to have caused his own downfall by sexually harrassing one of his employees. Whatever happened after that was just a downward spiral which eventually led to his death by execution.

Was he mentally ill? Who knows for sure.

If he was mentally ill should he have been given some kind of special treatment or consideration?

In the UK and the US there is ample case law already exists to plead mitigation for leniency, or even pleas in bar of trial in the case of persons who are mentally unfit to stand trial at all. There is also the option to plead insanity or guilt by reason of insanity. However, Mr Shaikh did not commit these crimes in the UK or the US, but in China, and accordingly chinese law has jurisdiction over the matter regardless of what any of us think or feel about chinese law.

The US still carries out executions as well, so in that respect it is no different from China. You could argue statistics and percentages, however you should also bear in mind that China’s population also comprises about one fifth of the entire planet and is four times the size of the US population, so it would not be unreasonable to expect their death sentences to be four times that of the US, although I haven’t bothered to try and calculate whether it is 4x the US.

[Syntropy]

@Jamil0458

Actually I did read the various stories, including the ones you had various links to - I missed the part about little or no money in that report in the telegraph…

It was the Guardian.

but it wouldn’t change my point of view.

Good for you. People willing to revise their opinions when confronted with new factual information clearly lack the strength of their convictions. I’m glad to see you won’t be doing that any time soon.

The US still carries out executions as well, so in that respect it is no different from China. You could argue statistics and percentages, however you should also bear in mind that China’s population also comprises about one fifth of the entire planet and is four times the size of the US population, so it would not be unreasonable to expect their death sentences to be four times that of the US, although I haven’t bothered to try and calculate whether it is 4x the US.

I don’t see why not. India has a larger population than the US, and although they do have capital punishment, the rate isn’t as high as ours. I don’t see why it’s reasonable to expect China’s death sentences to be more than three times that of the rest of the world.

[YogSothoth]

@Syntropy

Thank you for addressing my original question.

I am against the practice of the death penalty here for the same reason. I’m also an atheist, and much of what you said has merit. I think my largest question still remains: where does our government’s responsibility lay with respect to the death penalty and mentally unstable criminals, and how do we draw the line between ‘dangerous’ and ‘harmless’? As I said, Shaikh seemed more a danger to himself than to others: no history of violence, prone to delusions.

Where I would draw the line, and again I’m speaking from a life-isn’t-intrinsically-precious point of view here, is that if the person cannot be cured/rehabbed, then it matters little if the disability is their fault, they are equally dangerous as an unrepentant criminal, and should be executed as a protection to society.

Although I must make it clear again that I am NOT for the death penalty here in the US. I believe we have the resources to care for these people in other ways. We are not China and don’t have 1 billion plus people within our borders. But if we have to have it, then lets do perform it on those who would miss it the least, the mentally ill, or would benefit the most from it

[Marley23]

@Jamil0458

If anything, this only goes to show that people who may well have some of these quirks of character which can now be given a label in this day and age are clearly people who can make informed decisions, whether they be good decisions or bad ones, and even whether or not they are of legal capacity to make them!

Or possibly it shows that mental illnesses can be managed with some success. Fry’s a wealthy and successful actor, and Shaikh was a homeless man. Do you think one of them might have received better care?

The US still carries out executions as well, so in that respect it is no different from China. You could argue statistics and percentages, however you should also bear in mind that China’s population also comprises about one fifth of the entire planet and is four times the size of the US population, so it would not be unreasonable to expect their death sentences to be four times that of the US, although I haven’t bothered to try and calculate whether it is 4x the US.

Amnesty International estimates the Chinese government executed 1,718 people in 2008. This site says there have been 51 executions in the U.S. this year, so China wins by a 33:1 landslide. And here’s guessing the Amnesty figure is not even close to the real number.

[Syntropy]

@YogSosoth

Where I would draw the line, and again I’m speaking from a life-isn’t-intrinsically-precious point of view here, is that if the person cannot be cured/rehabbed, then it matters little if the disability is their fault, they are equally dangerous as an unrepentant criminal, and should be executed as a protection to society.

Interesting. Only after they commit a crime, or immediately after it’s determined they cannot be cured/rehabbed? If so, at what age? Would you include those suffering from Autism?

[Jamil0458]

@Marley23

Or possibly it shows that mental illnesses can be managed with some success. Fry’s a wealthy and successful actor, and Shaikh was a homeless man. Do you think one of them might have received better care?

I think it does show that mental illness can be managed with some success, and I’m glad you picked up on that. When you look at the rest of what I said, it portrays that very point. Shaikh would appear to have been the orchestrator of his own downfall. I’m not going to disagree that it was a particularly harsh punishment, but that was the chance he took and the choices he made.

As for being a ‘homeless man’, whether there is any real substance to that claim, it is also a choice he made - under UK law it would be called making yourself ‘intentionally homeless’. Whether they were rational choices or not, who really knows. There doesn’t appear to have been any substance to claims of a mental illness prior to these events, indeed, his life by all accounts seemed to have been better than the average man in the streets. He had a decent enough business which met trouble through his own actions. There are many other victims in this whole sorry affair, many of whom became victims as a consequence of Mr Shaikh’s actions - so he was clearly a danger to others in some capacity.

As for your claims about Amnesty internationls ‘estimates’ contrasted to the figures of the US, you are omitting the fact that this is merely an estimate on the part of Amnesty International. How they arrived at such a random figure I don’t know. The true figure may be even higher than that quoted by Amnesty, and it wouldn’t surprise me if it was. I’m certainly not here to try and defend China but I do believe they have the right to make their own laws and that the UK and the US have enough problems of their own to contend with rather than taking political side-swipes at China.

I’m also not debating against the rights of people with genuine mental illnesses to have a fair trial and for any contributory factors to be given due regard in the process of a trial, but you can’t contrast the way things are done in the US or the UK with the way it is done in China as they are individual states with their own rules of Law - we may not like those laws in the US or the UK, but we are not subject to the laws of China outside of chinese soil. Mr Shaikh made himself subject to them when he entered the country with 4 kilo’s of a class A drug. I’m just not convinced that he was an innocent party, that he was duped, deluded or otherwise. There are conflicting reports, and even within reports that might favour a mental illness, there is ample evidence of a man who was not as ill as some people would try and make out.

Should he have died for it? I think that was rather extreme. A long prison sentence would have been a more appropriate punishment imho. If we assume that he was guilty - there is also no doubt the trafficking of drugs creates misery for many others, but on this occassion the drugs did not get through and therefore nobody was harmed or affected by it, so a prison sentence would have been an appropriate sentence.

[YogSothoth]

@Syntropy

Interesting. Only after they commit a crime, or immediately after it’s determined they cannot be cured/rehabbed? If so, at what age? Would you include those suffering from Autism?

Only after they’ve committed a crime, thus showing that they are a danger.

I don’t know about Autism as its a little-understood illness that doesn’t seem to be overly violent. I wouldn’t put them in the same category as criminals who kill because a voice was telling them to do it

[Marley23]

@Jamil0458

As for being a ‘homeless man’, whether there is any real substance to that claim, it is also a choice he made - under UK law it would be called making yourself ‘intentionally homeless’. Whether they were rational choices or not, who really knows. There doesn’t appear to have been any substance to claims of a mental illness prior to these events

I’m coming to all of this late, of course - I guess everyone is because the death sentence was announced so quickly - but if your claim is that ‘there is no evidence he was crazy until he started acting crazy,’ I can’t do anything except shrug.

As for your claims about Amnesty internationls ‘estimates’ contrasted to the figures of the US, you are omitting the fact that this is merely an estimate on the part of Amnesty International.

I think I was pretty clear about it:

@Marley23

Amnesty International estimates the Chinese government executed 1,718 people in 2008.

I don’t know the basis for the estimate but like I said, I wouldn’t be surprised if the number was much higher. It’s a preliminary basis for an response to your statement “it would not be unreasonable to expect their death sentences to be four times that of the US, although I haven’t bothered to try and calculate whether it is 4x the US.”
In fact their death sentences could be 30 times more than the US, and if the true number was 100 times, I would not be at all surprised.

I do believe they have the right to make their own laws and that the UK and the US have enough problems of their own to contend with rather than taking political side-swipes at China.

The debate is whether or not their laws are just, not ‘do they have the right to make their own laws.’ I think most of us take it as a given that they do.

you can’t contrast the way things are done in the US or the UK with the way it is done in China as they are individual states with their own rules of Law

That’s exactly why we can contrast them. They’re different.

I’m just not convinced that he was an innocent party, that he was duped, deluded or otherwise. There are conflicting reports, and even within reports that might favour a mental illness, there is ample evidence of a man who was not as ill as some people would try and make out.

And I don’t know for sure either. All I can say is that I would not be surprised.

[SciFiSam]

China has laws about sentencing people who have mental illnesses. They refused to allow Mr. Shaikh to be properly examined after serious doubts were brought up about his mental state (some of the above cites talk about this). They were wrong, under their own laws, to execute him.

I have a couple of good friends who are diagnosed bipolar and they sound like this guy to a worrying degree. He recorded a song called ‘Come Little Rabbit’ with the thought that it could help save the world. He’s just the sort of bloke to carry a loaded suitcase with no awareness of what its contents contain, if it were handed to him by the right person.

@Jamil0458

Ironically, under UK law, a person who suffers from a mental illness is not considered to be of legal capacity to enter into any contracts -

(Lots of snips either side of the line I’m taking into contention).

Are you absolutely sure about that? I’m pretty sure you’re wrong.

One of my best friends is diagnosed bipolar and still a practising barrister. She is also seriously batshit insane in her bad times and doesn’t get many cases.

Nobody would be able to stop her travelling withing the EU, no more than they’d be able to stop her travelling anywhere if she has a passport. She’s a bit nuts, not standing at the passport desk saying ‘I am a penguin, blewiwiwiwiwiw, you are a donut.’

[China_Guy]

I understand if you’re opposed to the death penalty for moral reasons. China, on the other hand, is a sovereign nation and believes in the death penalty as a deterrent. China also subscribes to the school of reform through labor and paying one’s debt to society. (I have an uncle who did about 5 years hard time in a reform through labor camp during the cultural revolution.)

China has limited social services for the handicapped (I have a special needs child and understand this quite intimately), little in the prison system and I would hazard a guess no mental health rehabilitation services in English for foreigners in the Chinese prison system.

I guarantee that factored into the final decision despite governmental appeals is the fact that either drug smugglers or their puppets would take the precident of a mentally challenged foreigner being let off the hook of a capital crime drug smuggling case with millions of dollars at stake as an open invitation to use exactly this profile to mule drugs.

Mr. Shaikh appears to *not *be a slam dunk case of a clear proveable history of mental illness prior to this. There are certainly open questions and some hearsay evidence, but IMHO nothing that screams that this is a clear cut and obvious miscarriage of a mentally challenged individual. Keep in mind that in China the bar for proving mental illness as a reason for liency is much higher than say the US.

Finally, China and pretty much the rest of Asia, has very draconian drug smuggling laws with the death penalty for smuggling a fraction of what Mr. Shaikh was caught with. For example, Singapore (rated as perhaps the most ‘free’ country in the world and a GDP roughly equivalent to the US) has signs in all entry points that drug smuggling is punishable by death. See below:

here’s something from China: In the 1980s, the NPC Standing Committee issued, successively, the Customs Law of the PRC, the Regulations of the PRC on Administrative Penalties for Public Security, the Resolution on Severely Punishing Criminals Who Have Seriously Sabotaged the Economy, the Supplementary Regulations on Punishing Smuggling, and other laws, which formulated further regulations on punishing drug-related crimes and raised the highest legal punishment for serious drug-related crimes to the death penalty.

Cambodia
The death penalty was abolished in Cambodia, but drug laws remain strict for those caught with controlled substances. Punishment ranges from 5 years to life in prison. Law enforcement in Cambodia is spotty – some members of the police are perceived to be involved in the drug trade.

•Law on the Drug Control - Cambodia (ASEANSEC.org)
Indonesia
Indonesian drug laws prescribe the death penalty for narcotics trafficking and up 20 years in prison for marijuana offenses. Simple possession results in prison terms of one to five years. The country has recently ended a four-year hiatus on the death penalty for drug-related offenses - two Nigerians were executed by firing squad on June 26.

•Law of the Republic of Indonesia on Narcotics (ASEANSEC.org)
•Executions for Drug Crimes Are Resumed in Indonesia (New York Times)
Laos
The Criminal Code of Laos penalizes possession of narcotics under Article 135. Under a new amendment to the existing Code, possession of at least 3.5 ounces (100g) of heroin can get you 10 years’ imprisonment and a fine of up to $35,000 (100 million kip).

•Laos Confident New Anti-Narcotic Law Will Effectively Help Combat Drug Problems (Voice of America)
•United Nations Third Committee, Item 104: Laos, International Drug Control (UN.int)
Malaysia
Long jail sentences and heavy fines are mandatory for suspects caught with controlled substances, and the death penalty is prescribed for drug traffickers. the law presumes you are trafficking in drugs if you’re caught in possession of at least half an ounce of heroin or at least seven ounces of marijuana.

•Criminal Penalties – Malaysia (US Department of State)
Philippines
The law prescribes the death penalty for drug traffickers caught with at least 0.3 ounce of opium, morphine, heroin, cocaine, marijuana resin, or at least 17 ounces of marijuana. The Philippines has imposed a moratorium on the death penalty, but drug offenders are still punished harshly if caught – the minimum sentence is 12 years in prison for possession of.17 ounce of illegal drugs.

•Dangerous Drugs Act of 2002 - Philippines (ASEANSEC.org)
Singapore
The Misuse of Drugs Act is very strict – persons caught with at least half an ounce of heroin, at least 1 ounce of morphine or cocaine, or at least 17 ounces of marijuana are presumed to be trafficking in drugs, and face a mandatory death penalty. 400 people were hanged for drug trafficking in Singapore between 1991 and 2004.
•Misuse of Drugs Act of 1973 - Singapore (ASEANSEC.org)
Thailand
In Thailand, the law prescribes the death penalty for carrying category I narcotics (heroin) “for the purpose of disposal”. The death penalty for drug trafficking has not been imposed since 2004, but rehabilitation counselling is often imposed on convicted drug users.

•Narcotics Act B.E. 2552 - Thailand (ASEANSEC.org)
Vietnam
Vietnam strictly enforces its drug laws. As prescribed by Article 96a and Article 203 of the Vietnamese Criminal Code, possession of heroin in quantities larger than 1.3 pounds gets you a mandatory death sentence. In 2007, 85 people were executed for drug related offenses.

•Article 96A and Article 203 of the Vietnam Criminal Code (VN National Legal Database)

[Magiver]

China’s appeal process seems severely limited based on other cases that have been on the news. Just on the surface of it, only a nutjob would ride a plane with a suitcase full of a heroin into China.