Really?
Should i ask for a cite?
How do you know He didn’t say certain things?
Please read the cite.
I cite the holy and Noble Quran, the true and living Word of The God.
I hope that The God is authority enough for you.
Dunno, what opinion does The Cecil hold about God?
Everytime The God tells the Perfect Master to do something, the Perfect Master does it.
there is an excellent book by Aldous Huxley on this topic called the Perennial Philosophy (you find it on Amazon).
It highlights and investigates the common threads which run through all religions.
highly recommended!
Salaamu-aleikum,SimonX. While your intentions are noble, I don’t think that Summertime is prepared to accept the Quran as the word of God, and will therefore not accept it as a valid proof that some of Jesus’s words have been distorted or fabricated.
I’m sure there are other cites that can be provided, but given the evident depth of Summertime’s feelings and faith, I don’t think that he (or she) is going to be persuaded, no matter what evidence is provided. No offense, Summertime, but it’s obvious that you’ll believe what you want, regardless.
Now that I’ve strayed thoroughly off-topic, let me make amends by also citing a great book on the subject, titled “The History of God” and written by Karen Armstrong.
It explores the historical roots of all three Abrahamic faiths and examines the many similarities between them.
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I am not a dude. I am a woman.
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I did not say about Islam all that you read into my statement, just that it was different. It certainly has been interpreted in many places as precluding a wife delivering goods to merchants while her husband is busy elsewhere as is implied in Proverbs.
His name is Neo.
And especially Dio.
Was there a figure named “Allah” that pre-dates Islam?
Compare, perhaps to the Romans’ “Jupiter,” who was revered as an independent entity long before he became identified with the Greek “Zeus.” Jupiter didn’t start out the “same” as Zeus…but merged with him over time, until they became the same. (Gods can do that!)
re “The old texts were corrupted, so a new Prophet had to come and set things right,” isn’t that the basis of the Mormon’s faith?
Is it “right” for Neil Gaiman’s “The Kindly Ones” story arc in Sandman to be seen as the true conclusion of the Orpheus myth? Is it just storytelling? Is Dante’s Divine Comedy “inspired” or merely profane?
Whom do you trust to make such a decision?
Trinopus
Allah translates as The God.
The God
I thought Jupiter was a varient, derived from “Zeus-pater” (Zeus the father). Perhaps someone more knowledgable on Greek mythology can drop in here.
.:Nichol:.
Is it the same God. Well yes. All three religions say that this being (lets call him JHWH) talks to Abraham. All three identify JHWH as tha allmighty, as God.
All three religions claim to still be worshipping the same being.
Now all three religions believe the other two have got it wrong about how to worship JHWH. But that doesn’t mean JHWH is a different being in each religion, just the being is talked about in different ways.
Note to participants here, religious text specific to any one religion cannot be used to refute the claims of any other religion.
So whatever is said in the Qu’ran is not relivent in refuting Christianity or Judaism. Since a prefface of Christianity and Judaism is that the Qu’ran is NOT the word of God.
You see, you can draw a cladistic diagram from the original God of Abraham and of the Peoples of the Book…
down to the almost infinitely branches of today, with the Shi’ite and Shia, the Orthodox jew and the Orthodox Greek, the Coptic sect, the Roman Catholic and the…
Reformed Baptist Church of God, reformation of 1915
you could call it evolution, in a way.
hmm…
I don’t think you can claim that Jews, Christians and Muslims all worship the same God. It may be true that Jews and Christians have been lead astray but this still means that they have a different conception of God to Muslims.
The God that appears in the Koran (even if He is the true God) says completely different things to the God that Jews and Christians follow. Therefore Muslims worship a different God - the God of the Koran.
Whichever religion is actually right is irrelevant. Whether or not Jews and Christians have been lead astray is irrelevant. Jews and Christians believe what they believe, rightly or wrongly. And what they believe is different to what muslims believe, therefore they worship a different conception of God QED.
Bibliovore said:
Well, of course summertime isn’t going to accept the Koran’s version of events as valid proof because the Koran was written 700 years after the event. The only way the Koran can be valid proof is if the Koran actually is the word of God but unfortuately there is no way of knowing this for sure, you just have to rely on faith.
In a court of law however, faith means nothing - only evidence counts. In mathematics, faith means nothing. In science, faith means nothing. In the field of logic, faith means nothing. In judging historical events, faith means nothing.
The only field of human endeavour in which faith seems to hold merit is in religion.
Well, I would also like to see them because I don’t think they exist and I’m no Christian so don’t worry about hurting my feelings. I’m legally trained and all I care about is evidence. Show me some evidence that Jesus’ life has been misrepresented in some way. Show me something, anything. But it has to be independent (ie not in the Koran).
In order to help you, I’ll give you an example of evidence. The Koran says that Jesus wasn’t crucified but someone else who looked like Jesus was crucified instead.
yesss…and the evidence for this statement is…?
The evidence against it is the fact that there are independant writings from the time which tell us that Jesus was crucified - in the Roman Chronicles and in a book by Josephus (Jewish historian) and in other independant writings too. Not to mention all the different writers in the Bible of course.
So to me (as a non-religious person) it looks like the Romans thought Jesus was crucified, the Jews thought Jesus was crucified, the Christians thought Jesus was crucified and all the available evidence points toward the conclusion that Jesus was crucified.
The only evidence against Jesus being crucified is what Mohammed said centuries later. Well I’m afraid that isn’t very good evidence really for judging a historical event.
You HAVE to believe the Koran is the word of God because that’s the only way Islam can make you overlook the mass of evidence against it. Personally I hate it when religions try to pull the wool over peoples eyes.
These statements of yours reveal you to be an unbeliever. You do not even take into consideration the actual existence of The God when you examine this issue.
A conception of The God lives inside a limited mortal mind and therefore is entirely different from The God. Different conceptions do not different gods make.
If three people talk to you and each one formed a different conception of you, would they have talked to three different Jojo’s?
Actually, The God doesn’t. The God refines and clarifies certain issues that is true; however, even Mohammhed called for the Torah to judge a woman taken in adultery. The Qur’an 5,43 also clearly and specifically states:
This is proof that the Qur’an doesn’t say “completely different things.”
It is a paramountly foolish to say that the true religion is irrelevant
One day, maybe, you will understand that a conception of a thing is not the thing in and of itself.
The Qur’an is actually the word of The God. Examine the Qur’an- it in and of itself is a miracle. It is proof that it is from The God.
First, the Qur’an actually says this:
So, of course, the people to whom it appeared that Isa was slain, would write down what they thought was true.
Second, the Qur’an is more thoroughly vetted than the Roman and Jewish sources that you mention. The Qur’an has been carefully preserved word for word exactly from the time of it’s writing. The Bible has not. It has had all sorts of conventions where conventioneers voted on what they wanted the Bible to be. Just ask Cecil. The God chose what was to be in the Qur’an. The Qur’an has been preserved intact, in its original form for all ages because it is under The God’s special protection. (This too is proof that it is from The God.)
It would be poor judgement to take the word of someone so far removed from the event. You seem to forget that Muhamed, praise be unto him, talked to an eyewitness. Mohamhed, praise be unto him, said what The God told to him.
The “mass of evidence” shows that the Qur’an is the word of The God. Islam opens one’s eyes again to what is the true nature of The God and man’s relationship to TheGod.
All people are born Muslim. It is just their parents and enviroments that turn them into Christians, Jews, mushrik, and unbelievers.
If, by “unbeliever”, you mean to suggest that I don’t believe the Koran is the work of God then, yes, I am an unbeliever.
If you mean “do I believe in God” then I would say that I’m actually about 70/30 in favour of there being a God.
Anyway, so what if I was an “unbeliever”? What you gonna do about it, jihad me?
Anyway, I agree with you that God might IN FACT be one being. All I am arguing is that the conceptions of God differ depending on what religion you follow. The Jewish God is different to the Christian God which is different again to the Muslim God.
To pretend otherwise is foolish and will lead to trouble in the long run, mark my words.
Please understand that I am not trying to suggest that one belief system is any better than another. Maybe Islam is indeed the true way - I don’t know - but I have to say that, as an outsider looking in, I’m not convinced by the evidence.
Do you even understand that, to a non-muslim, this argument just sounds so lame:
“But our religion IS the right way, look we’ve got a book and everything so it must be right”
Having a book doesn’t, logically, make that book right. You think the book’s right because the book tells you it is right. Circular logic - you need to break out of the intellectual prison you have placed yourself in. You need to question everything in life, especially inherited belief systems.
I had to do it, lot’s of people do it. It’s painful but believe me it’s worth it in the long run. Even if you come out the other side still believing Islam, fine, but you owe it to yourself to spend some time looking coldly and unemotionally at the evidence against it. If Islam is right then you have nothing to fear…
Read some layman’s physics books about quantum theory, superstring theory, parallel universes and stuff. You will realise that the real world around you is far weirder than anything in the Koran or the Bible.
[size=4]If three people talked to you and each one formed a different conception of you, would they have talked to three different Jojo’s?[size]
Do you realize how patronizing and insulting this ^ is?
that’s the trouble with coding yourself.
preview is my friend.
No they would have talked to the same Jojo but they would have three different conceptions of me which they would then pass on to their followers.
It doesn’t matter in practical terms whether it is one God or not. All that matters is what that God said to the different groups of people. The Koran God says different stuff to the New Testament God which says different stuff to the Old Testament God.
So therefore, for all practical purposes, they all worship a different God. It doesn’t matter who is right and who is wrong. All that matters is the human conception of what that God wants us to do.
Do you realise how patronizing and insulting it is to me to assume I will overlook a mountain of evidence in order to believe that Jesus wasn’t crucified?
You’re asking me to discard my common sense and my ability to discern. The word “discern” means to choose between one option and another on the grounds that one option seems better than the other.
The method I use to discern between one thing and another is to look to see whether one idea has more evidence than the other.