SimonX what you say is fine until you start quoting what the Qur’an says about the son of Mariam as refutation to the Christian view. Because in making the assumption that the Qur’an is the truth, you have allready made the assumption that Christ was not the Son of God. Your starting by assuming what you intend to try and prove.
b.t.w. I think jojo has come arround to the reasoning that Muslim, Christian, and Jew are each in their own way trying to worship something that is the same being in each case. Specifically the being that chatted with Abraham, Moses, Noah, and Adam and Eve.
But the concept of that Allah in each case is so different, that no more than one of Jewish, Muslim, or Christian religion can be doing it completely as God requires. Possibly none of them are correct yet (my personal view).
I’d be quite interested, Jomo, to see a bit of that “mountain of evidence” proving Jesus was crucified. What would be even more interesting would be proof that such a crucifixion can only lead to one conclusion about Jesus’ nature.
Well, Jewish law considers Muslims to be worshipping the same G-d as described in the Torah. Mohammed is not believed to be a prophet, but a mosque is not considered, in Jewish law, to be a place of idolatry.
A church, on the other hand, would be, because the Christian beliefs in the Trinity and in JC as being G-d incarnated violate fundamental Jewish beliefs about the nature of G-d.
All three religions do worship the same God, but I have always thought that the more a God supposedly changes and reinvents himself over time, the more unbelievable that God becomes.
You start out with the Torah. This God doesn’t seem particularly believable, but what God does? I grant him a small possibility of existing.
Then the New Testament, which seems to describe a very different God from the Torah. Since this God seems more loving and forgiving, it makes him easier to believe in. However, this God requires an even greater suspension of disbelief, because of these same differences.
Finally, hundreds of years later the Koran. To believe in this, you have to not only believe both the Torah and New Testament were divinely inspired, which is already a difficult proposition, but you have to believe that God allowed himself to be thouroughly misrepresented, and then decided after hundreds of human years to set the record straight. This is by far the most unbelievable possibility.
So yes, they all worship the same God, but at best that God has a very small chance of existing, and at worst he is so unbelievable that I cannot imagine how anyone can believe in him without a huge amount of self delusion.
I’m reminded of the three wise men that were asked to intrepret an elephant. “It is like a snake” (the trunk), “no it is like a tree” (the legs), “no it is like a rope” (the tail).
Only the most arrogant believe that they or their religion can actually understand the one God.
conception of a does not equal a
There is only The God. There aren’t multiple gods.
For practical purposes, would these three people have talked to three different Jojo’s? If not why would you think that it should be any different for The God?
Actually, it is of the utmost importance who is right. Human conceptions are not the same thing as what actualy is.
You’ll have to come out of your agnostic fog to understand that for theists The God is not hypothetical.
Have you ever tried to discern the quality of evidences in addition to the quantity of evidences?
What you’re not getting here is the difference between the revelations to mankind as to the nature of The God and The God.
As mankind’s needs have changed The God has revealed the correct and necessary things to us.
Just because conceptions of The God have changed doesn’t mean that The God has changed.
The premise is that humans have a natural inclination toward submission to the will of The God. A cite for this would be the preponderance of cultures throughout time and across geography that are theists.
I think so. I was hoping someone would come along and give me some informed feedback. My experience is all book learnin’.
It’s not particularly Fundie, it’s a simple article of faith. I’m not sure why Simon is bothering playing the Muslim here, it’s not particularly the best approach.
I intend no disrespect.
Often, I’m not astute enough to find the best approach.
It’s an intellectual exercise for me.
I’m making a genuine attempt to portray what I have learned. I hope that I’ve come close. I also hope that someone who knows better will give me correction and pointers.
Islam is, IMHO, the most beautiful of the monotheisms that I’ve ever had the pleasure to see.
There are as many “gods” as their are people that worship them. No two seem to have the exact same description of this god. Christians, Jews, and Muslims all claim to have the correct way, while arguing amongst themselves. There are hundreds of different denomination each within their own religion. Different factions of Jews, Muslims and Christians, all claiming superior knowledge, most claiming a perfect book to guide them. This rightly causes suspicion.
The claim that he is “unknowable” is invalid. If god is unknowable, then we would not have even these bare bones details that christians, jews, and muslims like to haggle over.
Regardless of tradition, most insist that their god is the true god. How? Their holy texts tell them so. How do they know their holy text is accurate? God said so, right there in that holy text. This is circular reasoning and not admissable as evidence.
This is innacurate. But I noticed you have not defined a Muslim for us. This leaves you open to change your definition so as to leave yourself a back door in case you are cornered. So why don’t you start by defining exactly what a Muslim is, and then show us your logical progression that demonstrates that all are born muslims. I contend that all are born unbelievers. I cite as evidence that there are some who have never heard of, nor understand any concept of god (children mostly). I further cite evidence that indicates that almost all people who become involved in religion become involved in the same one as their parents. This can be easily verified by a number of searches on the web from a variety of sources.
If you wish to sway an unbeliever like myself, evidence must be provided. I have no faith nor do I consider faith a reliable means for gathering information. Any religion can have faith, in fact, most seem to think of it as a prime virtue. Therefore, none of the major religions of the world stand out from any other on this issue. If any one religion wishes to demonstrate that it is “the truth” as opposed to the others, then they must provide verfiable evidence that their position is the correct one. If they do not wish to provide this evidence, then they must admit they cannot prove anything, and they only have faith. You wish to believe by faith? Fine. Then state as much. But do not peddle your religion as factual or truthful if you cannot prove it. This is dishonest, asnd only speaks bad of you and the religion you follow.
All people are born Muslims? That is one of the most preposterous comments I have ever read!
Not one person in my family as far back as I can trace has ever been a Muslim in any sense of the word. I don’t think that anyone besides me has ever read any portion of the Qu’ran (sp?) and I only did it for the same reason I read portions of the bible… morbid curiosity.
So that only leaves the option that “God” instills beliefs into us before we are born for us to have all been born Muslim… again, this is preposterous. I could just as easily say that all humans are born male and the smart(stupid) ones have there penis fall off. Of course that logically makes absolutly no sense.
As Braces_for_Impact so elequently pointed out, you can have faith, but please do not try to push it on me as THE TRUTH unless you are prepared to back it up with more than “Because some book said so.”
Primo, Simon is not a Muslim, he was trying to play the part. I’m not either for that matter.
Secundo, the all are born Muslim item is an article of faith, a sort of theological theoretical item based off of the Islamic holding that Muhammed restored the true religion from its past corruption. It might be best expressed as all people are born with the true spiritiuality, which in “our” view is Islam, so all other things, while holding value and some validity, are deviations from the true path.
It’s mere theology, and getting all twisted up about it is like getting twisted up about Born Again’s insisting you’re not “saved” until you come over to their style “personal relationship” with God.
In the end why follow any religion if you don’t believe you’re on the true path?
Okay, I think we’ve strayed a bit from the OP here, and it looks as if tempers are getting a little frayed. However, if we stick to the question of whether or not Muslims worship the same God as jews and Christians, I think the answer is a pretty solid “yes”, because Muslims themselves believe that they do.
Regardless of whether you accept the Quran (or the Torah, or the Bible) as the word of God, regardless of whether you even believe in God, the fact remains that Muslims believe that they’re worshipping the same God, and that the Quran tells them so.
Think about it. If you accept that each religion’s beliefs are equally valid (as some posters here have pointed out), then who are we to say that the Muslims’ beliefs are wrong? If they believe that they’re worshipping the same God, then they are - it’s as simple as that.
Oh, and Simonx, are you a Muslim or not? If not, then why pretend to be? Are you just playing devil’s advocate?
Collounsbury, what makes you think he isn’t? how do you know?
I titled my posts
As if from an Islamic POV as I understand it
i tried unsuccessfully to increase the size of the title font and to make the title font a different color so as to draw attention to it.
I tried to be clear w/o interrupting the icontinuity of the post.
I wasn’t trying to play devil’s advocate so much as trying to explore the implications of Mohamed’s, (PBUH), revelation from The God.
I suspect that the eminent Col read the titles of my posts.
I titled my posts
As if from an Islamic POV as I understand it
I tried unsuccessfully to increase the size of the title font and to make the title font a different color so as to draw attention to it.
I tried to be clear w/o interrupting the continuity of the post.
I wasn’t trying to play devil’s advocate so much as trying to explore the implications of Mohamed’s, (PBUH), revelation from The God.
I suspect that the eminent Col read the titles of my posts.
If many people meet you and no two of them have the exact same description of you does that mean that there are as many braces_for_impact’s as there are people who met you?
It certainly seems that you are conflating the idea of a thing with the thing itself.
They are not the same thing.
It’s more accurate to say that since the human mind is limited, it cannot contain, even as just a concept, The God who is dimensionless and infinite.
Actually, if you access the records of the Perfect Master, Cecil, you will see that the Christian and Hebrew canons came about through conventions and conventioneers.
The Qur’an alone was dictated directly from The God AND carefully preserved word for word throughout the ages.
The natural tendency of man is to seek The God. This is why there are religions all over the globe throughout all of human history.
As to the the actual details like knowing that Mohamhed, PBUH, is th eprophet of The God aren’t inherent in our DNA. This is why The God gave us the Holy Qur’an. The Qur’an provides the necessary details.
If someone as learned as you cannot produce a single surah as eloquent and full of wisdom as the ones in the Qur’an how could an illiterate Arab like Mohamhed, PBUH, produce the entirety of the Qur’an?
He couldn’t. The Qur’an is a self-evident miracle.