Even among scholars who aren’t waiting for the end of the world, there’s debate on who Lucifer, Morning Star and a few others refer to. There are some IMHO convincing arguments that Lucifer is a reference to a human king. ‘O Lightbearer, how the mighty are fallen’ the prophet is speaking of a king who had lost his power and wealth or was about to do so.
Thanks Doc. It seems that even what we think is clear and simple is really about as clear as mud.
Wonder what the Google ads for this thread will look like…
Apocalyse WOW!:
Fall-out shelters at bargin prices.
Garm vs Tyr (Tyr gave Fenris a hand, earlier.)
Jormungand (Midgard Serpent) vs Thor
Ragnarok overview.
Good pun! Tyr sacrificed his hand, in order to keep Fenris “busy”, making it easier to chain him. That’s why I confused Vidar and Tyr, they both fought Fenris, though at different times. I need to re-read those stories again.
Re Morningstar
Isaiah 14:12 http://bible.cc/isaiah/14-12.htm IMO Clearly a human king in context.
Lay the nations low, prostrate the nations, cast lot…
That sounds a LOT like an earthly warrior king, a conqeror. I wonder if this was one specific king, or was it a generic slam against all would be conquerors.
This is covered extensively in Paradise Lost, where Lucifer spends the first four books yelling “NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!” while falling.
Maybe I should clarify where I was “coming from”, so it is clear why I thought the subject of Lucifer was a simple matter. Being raised Catholic, and having gone to a Catholic grade school, followed by a Catholic high school, we were taught that Satan/Lucifer/devil/Beelzebub/whatevah was a fallen angel who had rebelled against God. His crime was pride. Predictably, he was cast down. Before that, he had been the favorite, the most beautiful, the best, the morning star and the light of dawn, yada yada yada. We were taught that he was a real person (or a real being). It was he who appeared to Adam and Eve in the form of a serpent. He was the demon, the prince of lies, lord of flies, the accuser, the great corruptor, he was The Big Bad.
That is what we were taught, and that was it. It just was, and that was that. Just so everyone knows where I got that idea. Since then, I’ve come to question a lot of things. The more I learn, the more I think I am starting to figure it all out, the more convoluted it gets. Damn frustrating.
Personally, I don’t think we need a devil. We are perfectly capable of doing our own evil without any outside help, just as we are capable of doing good.
epraim, question: Are you going to depict every Palestinian as part of the 666 or whatever?
So, let us up the ante: If Mahmoud Abbas dies before the Second Coming, do you promise to admit here explicitly that you cannot tell the difference between the voice of God and your own imagination, and will rephrain from indulging your apocalypse fetish here forever more?
I will be in heaven with all other Christians when he dies so it will be physically impossible to do as you ask. We are speaking of two separate events. The Rapture happens before the Lord’s Second Coming.
I seem to have lost my Playbill, so mind if I clarify the order of events?
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Rapture. The best 144,000 direct descendants of the 12 tribes (12,000 per tribe, please - no cuts) get to go to heaven.
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Jesus pops down to Earth for a visit. Laughs at the six billion people Left Behind.
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Mahmoud Abbas dies.
Only if you’re right. I am asking about if you’re wrong.
If you are correct, and the Second Coming occurs before Abbas dies, I will appear on this website and explicitly repent and state my error.
If you are wrong, and Abbas dies before you go to heaven such taht we all, say, red about it in the news one day, will you admit here explicitly that you cannot tell the difference between the voice of God and your own imagination? Why not, if you’re so sure of yourself?
I am impressed by ephraim’s ideas, and would like to subscribe to his End Times.
So you do claim to know more than Christ, Himself. I’ll give you this: you’re an interesting sort of person; one who believes himself greater than the god he worships.
CJ
I don’t believe in any rapture. Neither does “my” church. Just so it’s clear that this is not a universal belief.
Most Christians don’t believe in the Rapture, especially when you look at Christianity throughout its history. Rapture theology was only developed within the past few hundred years and there’s little or no Biblical evidence for it, other than cherry-picking certain verses. Indeed, as I mentioned earlier in this thread, Christ’s statement that no one knows when the end will come, including Him makes it rather awkward for a Christian to claim to know when the End Times will come about. Still, some insist on doing so. Apparently, they want people to serve God out of fear, rather than love, which also directly contradicts Christ’s teachings.
CJ