The Sin of Presumption

[Jim_B]

I put this in Great Debates, because it has to do with religion. And it is a bona fide question too, as you will see.

Anyways, true story. I was debating a Christian on another message board. And I was trying to talk him out of relishing the fact, he thought all gays would go to hell. He told me, simply, that he was only using the reasoning ability God gave him. Although, FWIW, he did concede it wasn’t consistent with Jesus’ claim we should all love one another, to think that way.

Anyways, one argument I made to him, I heard in Catholic grade school. It’s called the sin of presumption. No one knows God’s plan. Only He does. To presume to know God’s plan, is called the sin of presumption. In fact my 8th grade teacher told us point-blank, for all we know, Hitler may have gone to heaven.

As I said, I heard it in RC school. But you have to realize, Roman Catholic morality is definitely Christian-based. It is from the Bible. It is fully equal to other Christians’ moral code. I know Catholic theology seems to deviate from the norm, esp. when it comes to our views of the Blessed Virgin Mary. But you can be assured our morality is sound.

I don’t know off-hand where exactly in the Bible is says this. I am not saying it doesn’t. I am just saying I don’t know off-hand. Maybe someone else can be of assistance here. (I think the story in Genesis where Lot’s daughter is turned into a pillar of salt, for looking back when God told them not to may be of help. But that may not be the best example.)

As I said before, I presently reject much of what the RC church teaches now. It’s not deliberate. It’s just the way things are. But I do still consider myself a nominal Catholic and nominal Christian. And I do still believe in God, if not much else.

My question: has anyone else heard of the sin of presumption? And do you have anything to add to what I said?

[Velocity]

I am not a Catholic, nor have I heard of this “sin of presumption” before, but I want to point out that there is a small but important difference between presuming what God would do, and arguing based off of what God has already said He will do. To use a related example: If someone claims that “many people will go to Hell,” that’s not presuming, that’s simply quoting out of Scripture.

A political analogy would be (and I am not saying Andrew Yang is God) - Yang is the “UBI guy;” he’s been promoting universal basic income at every turn. For someone to comment then, that, “If Yang is elected president, he’d try to get UBI passed once he takes office” is not being presumptuous; that’s simply going by Yang’s own words himself.

[ThisIsTheEnd]

(0.37 seconds)

The Sin of Presumption?

What Is the Sin of Presumption?

[Jim_B]

Okay, maybe I used the wrong term (cut me some slack, it’s been over 30 years since I’ve been in Catholic school ). I know though, that you are not allowed to presuppose God’s will. I can’t at the moment recall what that is called, though.

[Roderick_Femm]

I’m familiar with the rhetorical device used by believers to claim that we can’t know what God’s plan is. To me it’s always seemed like a huge Get Out Of Jail Free card for any pro-religious arguer, and it’s the go-to answer for the problem of evil (How could a God who is All Good allow so much evil in the world?). It ensures that reason and logic will never have a place at the Christian table.

So we have the Bible, which is nothing else but trying to teach us God’s will. On the other hand, we can never know what God’s plan is. Heads I win, tails you lose.

[k9bfriender]

What you describe is less Presumption and more false prophet. The sin of presumption is when you do not do your due diligence to avoid sin, in the theory that it will all be forgiven anyway.

There is no where in the bible that says that you go to hell if you are gay. It doesn’t even say that you go to hell if you are a serial killer. There really is only one unforgivable sin.

Some biblical references:

And so I tell you, any sin and blasphemy can be forgiven. But blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven.

All sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blaspheme: 29 But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation

There are a couple of passages in the bible that frown upon homosexual activity. There are dozens of passages that warn of false prophets.

A fairly notable one:

And the Lord said to me: “The prophets are prophesying lies in my name. I did not send them, nor did I command them or speak to them. They are prophesying to you a lying vision, worthless divination, and the deceit of their own minds. Therefore thus says the Lord concerning the prophets who prophesy in my name although I did not send them, and who say, ‘Sword and famine shall not come upon this land’: By sword and famine those prophets shall be consumed. And the people to whom they prophesy shall be cast out in the streets of Jerusalem, victims of famine and sword, with none to bury them—them, their wives, their sons, and their daughters. For I will pour out their evil upon them.

So yeah, it sounds like your Christian interlocutor from the other board is in far greater danger of eternal damnation than the homosexuals that he persecutes.

[UDS1]

What’s described in the OP isn’t the sin of presumption, in standard Catholic language; it’s the sin of despair.

To assume the certainty of salvation is presumption. To assume the certainty of damnation is despair. Most of the discussion, and most of the illustrations, involve presuming one’s own salvation or one’s own damnation, but making the presumption in relation to someone else would seem to be equally objectionable. Despair is considered to be a sin because “it contravenes with a special directness certain attributes of Almighty God, such as His goodness, mercy, and faith-keeping”. The rationale would suggest that despairing of someone else’s salvation is just as sinful as despairing of one’s own.