The sins of homosexuality and judgement

The BBQ Pit
1

Now, we shall debate on the sin itself and I demand to be shown your biblical proof of it. I also demand to be shown your rights to judgement as a Christian as expressed by the Lord Jesus Christ Himself. I shall begin:

From the Gospel of Matthew Chapter 7, KJV

1: Judge not, that ye be not judged.
2: For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.
3: And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother’s eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?
4: Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye?
5: Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother’s eye.

2

Thanks for posting the more complete passage. I’d like to reiterate a portion of it.

“and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother’s eye.”

This being said wholey apart from any debate on homosexuality, it always peeves me when people use “judge not” as if it means we are not to apply any sort of moral discretion to others’ actions. I guess all those times the apostles called people out in Acts (etc.) they were comdemning themselves via this passage.

…takes a deep breath…

3

From Paul’s Epistle to the Romans, Chapter 1, KJV

25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.

Paul certainly didn’t approve of homosexuality. To be fair the complete passage (Romans 1-3) basically outlines how both the obviously immoral and the outwardly moral are found wanting in God’s eyes, culminating with 3:23, “For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God.”

4

Yes, they were. Show me the text of judgement.

5

It’s important to note that the chapter and verse divisions of Bible books are not a part of the text, but reference tools added by scribes and such. Which means that the quoted Romans 1 passage directly flows into Romans 2:1 — “So also were some of you.”

IMHO, the text from Romans 1 quoted above has absolutely nothing to say about gay people, but rather refers to the tendency of jaded socialites, looking for kicks that keep getting harder to find, to try something new, which can include gay sex. There was an episode of this “gay chic” in the 1980s, reported at length in gossip columns and such. Its prevalence in First Century Rome is a matter of historical record (see Petronius or any of the current histories of the time).

6

Acts 10:42
And he commanded us to preach unto the people, and to testify that it is he which was ordained of God to be the Judge of quick and dead.
Acts 7:27
But he that did his neighbor wrong thrust him away, saying, Who made thee a ruler and a judge over us?
Romans 2:1-2
Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things.
But we are sure that the judgment of God is according to truth against them which commit such things.
Romans 14:2-4
For one believeth that he may eat all things: another, who is weak, eateth herbs.
Let not him that eateth despise him that eateth not; and let not him which eateth not judge him that eateth: for God hath received him.
Who art thou that judgest another man’s servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth.
1 Corinthians:1-5
Let a man so account of us, as of the ministers of Christ, and stewards of the mysteries of God.
Moreover it is required in stewards, that a man be found faithful.
But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged of you, or of man’s judgment: yea, I judge not mine own self.
For I know nothing by myself; yet am I not hereby justified: but he that judgeth me is the Lord.
Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God.

Paul’s knowledge of homosexuality was limited tot he practices which he witnessed, and his knowledge of Christ was limited to his faith, and what he had heard, there were no Christian Gospels in Paul’s day. Paul was decreeing against those who turn away from God and to fornication, lies, deceit, murder, whispering. Those that hate God and do not listen to His word, and instead choose to do evil things.

7

Yes, they were. Show me the text of judgement.

8

Paul had some really short-sighted (read: dumb) things to say about women too. Paul was not perfect and he readily admitted it.

9

We got into this in some depth over on Pizza Parlor.

Distinguish between several meanings of judgment:
[ul][li]Taking a stance of personal justification or condemnation over another. This is what Jesus specifically targets in the Matthew passage, IMHO.[/li][li]Evaluation of an idea. We’re called on to test all things and hold fast to that which is good.[/li][li]Making judgments about what is good or bad for a fellow believer. This is a part of the exhorting and lifting up which is done in love between brothers and sisters in Christ.[/ul][/li]
It’s important to note that last is delimited to people confessing Jesus, so far as Scripture is concerned, and is to be done with love evident, for the mutual help we owe each other.

To the extent possible, one can do this with others whom one has befriended – but with extreme care taken to demonstrate its being done in a loving fashion.

10

Amen, Polycarp, for Christ in His infinite mercy has given us a New Covenent, that we shall follow His commandments as spoken on the Mount.

We, as Christians can dispute the scriptures, but we cannot judge one another guilty of sin. We can suggest, perhaps even insist. What is the greatest tool that a Christian has for evaluation of their sins? The power of Christ in the Holy Spirit given as a gift of guidance to all who believe His word. How can I judge my fellow Christians as being in sin, when I feel none of the convictions laid upon them? How can I judge others, when I am not fit to judge even myself?

Whose guidance should I seek in my life? Whose way do we follow? Whose name is upon the lips of every praying, god loving Christian man and woman?

11

Question for you, Tertius01:

Were I to make a warning against behaving as Nazis did, and include in this comparison the fact that they engaged in “scientific” studies (among other things, and which results are photographically viewable in the Holocaust Museum in DC) with children, would you consider this an admonishment against scientific studies?

Romans 1:7-32

“7 To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ. 8 First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world. 9 For God is my witness, whom I serve with my spirit in the gospel of his Son, that without ceasing I make mention of you always in my prayers; 10 Making request, if by any means now at length I might have a prosperous journey by the will of God to come unto you. 11 For I long to see you, that I may impart unto you some spiritual gift, to the end ye may be established; 12 That is, that I may be comforted together with you by the mutual faith both of you and me. 13 Now I would not have you ignorant, brethren, that oftentimes I purposed to come unto you, (but was let hitherto,) that I might have some fruit among you also, even as among other Gentiles. 14 I am debtor both to the Greeks, and to the Barbarians; both to the wise, and to the unwise. 15 So, as much as in me is, I am ready to preach the gospel to you that are at Rome also. 16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. 17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith. 18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; 19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. 20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: 21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. 22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, 23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things. 24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves: 25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen. 26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: 27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet. 28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient; 29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers, 30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, 31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful: 32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.”

Note the word lust, not love. It isn’t saying “don’t be gay”. It’s saying (IMHO) “Don’t have your only reason for sex be physical desire”.

And related to what Poly said, remember too this: the original text of the Bible (and indeed text for several hundred years before some system of standardization came into practice) was without punctuation. “thou shalt not lie with man as with woman it is an abomination” is how the sentence originally was. And need we get even into the number of possible interpretations of that?:wink:

Judgment, in my mind, is a far worse sin than sexual activity with human consenting adults could ever be. In the former, you’re presuming to speak for God. In the latter you’re … well … engaging in a loving act with someone. Maybe it’s the pacifist in me that doesn’t quite see whence all the Righteous Wrath Againt Them Fornicators…

Lastly … someone here (I think) had mentioned a while ago a clarification in meaning of the word “unnatural” as it appears both in sexual practice recommendations and in kosher law. Specifically, IIRC the note was made that it is the same use made for “[homosexual actions are] unnatural” as for “eating lobster is unnatural”. Does anyone have that source handy?

12

I won’t demand that anyone do anything, or justify anything to me. In fact, I think the real division is not between the difference between sins of sexual misconduct, and judgmentalism without authority is the wrong division to look at.

The division I look at is those of my sins that turn my heart away from the Lord, my God, and those of my sins which turn other souls away from His sweet love. It is the latter that most bring fear into my heart. I have been sent by the Lord Jesus to minister to His beloved children here on earth. What shall I say to Him when he asks me where His children have gone?

From they to whom much has been given, much will be asked. I am blessed with life, and life everlasting. I am blessed with the love of God undying. How can I give unto His children anything but love unconditional, and freely given. Sin is death. But God is greater than sin, or death.

Tris

“Being deeply loved by someone gives you strength; loving someone deeply gives you courage.” ~ Lao-Tzu ~

13

It’s Leviticus, iampunha. Mosaic law does not apply to Christians, but to the Hebrews. The covenent of Christ supercedes it.

14

and by the way, Tertius01,

What’s with that? 01? What, you couldn’t backspace over and ask for 03? Man, what were you thinking?

Tris

15

Hebrews 8:8-13

For if that first [covenant] had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.

For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:

Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.

For this [is] the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.

For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.

In that he saith, A new [covenant], he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old [is] ready to vanish away.

16

Here’s my humble opinion on the matter:

  1. Paul was a human. He had human flaws, and he goes on and on about how he is as flawed and human as anyone. His opinions were highly shaped by the society in which he lived, and those opinions included some about women being inferior, as well as homosexuality being unnatural and evil. Paul had a lot of great things to say regarding theology and the Christian life, but one should treat his writings as what they are: one man’s views.

  2. The other anti-homosexual verse that is so commonly trotted out appears in the book of Leviticus, which, IIRC is directed toward ancient Jewish priests, and is largely made up of rules for ceremonies and sacrifices, as well as a whole bunch of commandments that Christians basically ignore, regarding diet, the kinds of fabrics to wear, etc.

  3. People who believe the Bible to be divinely inspired and without error are going to ignore point number one, and people who are homophobes are not going to look too critically at verses condemning homosexuality. Not that I’d expect them to, I think that the gay community wrings some really tortured readings out of these verses to justify our lifestyles, while I simply choose to consider them examples of an outdated, bygone culture. This option is not really available to those who see the Bible as without error, of course.

  4. Jesus certainly never said anything about it. In fact, I think that Paul goes a long way against the teachings of Jesus in trying to organize and quantify the religion, to put it in a perspective that is all about rules, when IMHO the message that Jesus had was closer to “Forget all the people who tell you that there are rules to follow to get in to heaven. Just love God and do what you know is right. When you don’t know what’s right, ask God, not people.” That of course is oversimplification, but remember that the early Christian church was a reaction against the ultra-legalistic Jewish establishment of the time, and IMHO Paul moves back in that direction.

LC

17

I know wherein the bits about kosher law and “thou shat not lie with” and such, Copaesthetic, but thanks:) I was more looking for a citation on the whole “unnatural is the same word in Hebrew in both cases”, in case anyone happened to have it.

18

Triskadecamus: Excellent point. That’s essentially what I’m getting at, but biblical judgementalism must be met with the bible. Hence, ‘shown me the text of judgement’. So, my concern is for the outward judgements that cause those who might otherwise find peace to be driven away from the Lord. It arouses my anger to a degree. If the right of judgement were given to man, how would I judge those? I admit that I can’t. I see some people who post about how this and that is a sin, and by God I’ll stamp it out. But is that the message of Christ? In my anger, perhaps I’m counseling my Christian brothers and sisters too harshly.

But, isn’t that the lesson? I’m judging them, and I am wrong to do that. But, here, within the folds of Christianity we can debate the laws of Christ, and that’s what I intend to do. I am often angered by those who preach about sin more than they preach about Christ, but I do not call them sinful. I say they are misrepresenting the message of Christ.

19

Ah, iampunha, the word that you are looking for is shaquats, or unclean, used when speaking of food preparation. Unfortunately, the word used for abomination in the other chapter is tow ebah, or morally detestable. The two are often interchanged in Leviticus, along with ba’ash, which basically means to stink.

20

Ah! iampunha, I offer my correction, albeit slight. You are not to eat shellfish because they are shaquats(unclean), and then, if you do engage in the act of eating them it is tow ebah(morally detestable). So, the act of eating shellfish is the same under Mosaic Law as homosexuality. Both are then abomination(tow ebah).

Now, you don’t need a link!