I have been attempting to master The Sourdough for about 3 years (note the caps. One utters “The Sourdough” in the same way they might announce that they are a fan of “The Ballet,” or had mastered “The Violin”.)
I have mastered The Rib, The Brisket, The Chili, The Hash Brown, The Shrimp Cocktail, and many many more, it usually take anywhere from a few tries to a dozen to master a new food item.
The Sourdough has been proving recalcitrant.
The Sourdough allows for 3 ingredients; unbleached flour, water, salt. That’s it.
One begins with starter, which is a live yeasty sponge that needs to be fed. It is simply fermenting flour and water. From there one makes a less watery sponge, waits 12 hours or so, makes a dough, waits several hours, shapes loaves, waits several hours, bakes, and then they have a product.
I’ve been consistently getting an insufficient rise, no matter what variables I play with, but yesterday I came close. In a couple of more months I might end up with an acceptable loaf, maybe sometime after that I will achieve mastery.
For something so simple and basic, it is very difficult. Any savants out there that want to share tips? What have you been struggling with?
Like, how long does it take to double on its own after you feed it?
How hydrated is your dough when you go to make the bread? True sourdough needs to be made wetter than most people feel comfortable with at first. Are you using a recipe? If so does that recipe have photos? Photo recipes are really helpful for new bread makers, particularly with sourdough. Also what type of flour are you using? White, wheat, AP, bread, and what brand?
What temperatures are you proofing at? I know you have probably played with a lot of these but we need to have more info to know what is going wrong. Underproofing could be a few things. Too much salt (as mentioned above) could be one too. It may be that you need more time with your particular starter. 12 hours may just not be enough.
How are you measuring, with a scale or with volume measures? Is your dough doubling in size before you bake it? What temp are you baking at? What are you baking on/in? Sometimes under proofing is due to how you handle the dough after you let it rise or baking at the wrong oven temp. How are you shaping it? Boules, Battons, in a vessel, freeform? Are you scoring it? Is your knife razor sharp when you do? Variables upon variables.
Have you made non sourdough bread? How did that go?
I’ve tried several techniques. On my loaves that were almost acceptable, I added two parts flour to one part water, mixed thoroughly, let rest for 3 hours covered, refrigerated overnight. The next morning I added more flour and salt (minimal, about 1 teaspoon for loaf,) let rise, shape and rise and bake.
I don’t do much baking, though I plan to start more soon, so I’m just guessing but mentioned above is that the dough may not be wet enough, that’s one thing I’ve heard about sourdough. I think it also needs more rise time than regular yeast dough so 3 hours may not be enough, and you’ll need more time if the temperature is too low. One teaspoon of salt per loaf sounds like more than enough depending on the loaf size, and if you need more rise time it will be a hindrance.
It’s. 50% water 50% flour mix so the starter doesn’t rise, it froths.
[quoteHow hydrated is your dough when you go to make the bread? True sourdough needs to be made wetter than most people feel comfortable with at first. Are you using a recipe? If so does that recipe have photos? Photo recipes are really helpful for new bread makers, particularly with sourdough. Also what type of flour are you using? White, wheat, AP, bread, and what brand?[/quote]
King Arthur unbleached bread flour. I am following this recipe precisely:
I’ve tried room temperature, and in the oven with the light on.
How are you measuring, with a scale or with volume measures? Is your dough doubling in size before you bake it? What temp are you baking at? What are you baking on/in? Sometimes under proofing is due to how you handle the dough after you let it rise or baking at the wrong oven temp. How are you shaping it? Boules, Battons, in a vessel, freeform? Are you scoring it? Is your knife razor sharp when you do? Variables upon variables.
Have you made non sourdough bread? How did that go?
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Volume measure, it spreads out and gets flat, so I don’t think it’s doubling, maybe about a 50% volume increase, 425 degrees, baking sheet on stone, boules and batons, scoring with a very sharp knife yet it still pulls at the dough.
I’ve baked a lot of bread and can make a fine Sourdough if I add in yeast. If I had to guess, I’d say my dough is too wet,
Why did you add more salt at this stage? That’s a strange time to add salt. It’s sort of a strange time to add more flour for that matter. You shouldn’t need more than bench flour for the final shaping and rise after you batch ferment.
How long are you proofing after you pull it from the fridge?
Oh, after reading your recipe I see what’s going on. You are likely massively under proofing your dough before you shape it.
Try this. After your initial kneed (post fridge) but before you shape, transfer the dough to a container with as close to straight sides as you have and as tall as you have. Let the dough double in size. The reason for the large straight sided container is that it will help you know when you have actually doubled. If you don’t have one you are going to have to guess, but this is probably going to help. This step is not, strictly speaking, necessary but it does a couple of things. 1) it let’s you know that you have gotten at least one really quality rise in, which will get you a long way there. 2) it takes some of the guesswork out of how much rise time you need once you shaped (it will be roughly half the time this rise took). 3) it will intensify the sourdough flavor. Nothing wrong with that.
It will add a lot of time to the process. But, once done it you will know better what to look for. With yeast you can rely a lot on oven spring to cover your sins. Sourdough won’t do that for you. Also, if your dough looks like it did in those pictures it’s probably not too wet. It’s really hard to have too wet sourdough dough and still have a dough that you can work with.
I also highly recommend the sourdough home website. It’s a wealth of knowledge. I also like the recipe for basic sourdough on that site better than the one you are using, but that’s personal preference.
Have you mastered The Loaf with regular instant yeast from the store?
If not, you could try that, as it eliminates one major variable. And you can master kneading, rising, shaping, proofing, and baking without the uncertainty about what the yeast will do.
From my understanding, airborne yeasts really have very little to do with making a starter from scratch. It’s pretty much all yeasts that are on the flour itself from the milling process. (And rye flour tends to be especially good for having a hearty assortment of yeasts, so many starter recipes will start with that and ease off the rye over time. I’ve found the only way I’ve had success with making my own starter is by using a good amount of rye to begin with. That said, it really is best to go with a known and vigorous starter, and Scylla has wisely done that.)
I don’t have anything else to add. NAF1138 seems to have covered it. For me, when I had issues, it was either underproofing, or just having a weak starter.
My biggest bread tip is this: use a scale. Flour really varies. A LOT. You can get a perfectly adequate scale for $10.
I use a Euro-style starter, a much drier mix than the gloppy pancake-batter consistency one often sees in the US. I keep Steve in the fridge and refresh him three days before I intend to make a loaf. Never had a problem with rise. I started Steve with rye flour, but he’s old enough now that he’s probably all wheat. I like Thom Leonard’s recipe.
You might try getting a sourdough starter from Carl’s Friends. Carl T. Griffith, who gave a sourdough starter to anyone who asked, or who sent him a self-addressed stamped envelope, died early in the year 2000 at the age of 80. He is known for his generosity and the high quality and vitality of his sourdough starts, which came from a sourdough culture carefully nurtured and preserved in his family for over 150 years.
Carl’s friends continue the tradition and will send you sourdough starter for the price of a self addressed stamped envelope. I got mine in China a decade ago, and managed to do some decent sourdough in Shanghai for a few years. I still have a SASE from a Carl Friend that’s been sitting in my cupboard for at least a few years. I think I’m inspired to get back into the sourdough baking biz with Carl’s progeny.
Anyhoo, I think it is way cool that a sourdough starter that came on the Oregon trail continues today, and is available for the price of a stamp. Plue Carl seemed like a righteous dude.