The Space Shuttle is a Failure, Deal With It

Not necessarily. You just need a crafty CEO at the helm. First of all, even though such a mission could be done with off-the-shelf gear (assuming it’s a NEO job) for the most part, you’re still going to learn a heckuvalotta things, that you can then capitalize on. Technology spin-offs, space craft design, etc. You can recoup some of your costs via those. Additionally, you will be the one controlling the titanium. You can dump it on the market all at once, thus driving the price down to almost zero (and quite possibly bankrupting mining operations and metal suppliers), you can ration it out, like DeBeers does with diamonds, or you can simply replace all the metal in your current product line with the titanium that you mined and not sell the titanium on the open market.

Imagine, if you will, GM hires Burt Rutan to go out and snag a titanium asteroid for them. When the metal get’s to Earth, GM promptly hordes all of it for itself. They cancel all their pending orders for steel and aluminum, chosing instead to use the titanium they mined. They do a big advertising push talking about how they’re now building their cars out of titanium, making them lighter and stronger than cars made out of steel or aluminum. GM could do demonstrations showing how a titanium bodied car survives crash tests better than a steel bodied car.

If GM holds on to the titanium and only adds a small cost to their cars to compensate for it, how are the other car makers going to compete? They can get titanium, but at $23+/lb (there might be a slight price drop as market speculation assumes that GM’s going to start selling the titanium, but eventually, it’ll shoot back up), they won’t be able to match GM’s prices (steel and aluminum costs pennies a pound at the moment). So they’re going to have to cut prices or something just to compete. It’ll also put the squeeze on the aftermarket parts manufacturers, since they won’t be able to get titanium at any better price than GM’s competitors, and you can’t weld steel to titanium, so patch panels and the like, would have to be made out of titanium, or you’d have to replace a whole quarter panel.

In short, GM would have a lock on the automotive market until someone else did what they did, or came up with an innovative solution (say they managed to get carbonfiber costs down to that of aluminum).

lol

While I get your point, and it’s pretty interesting I am skeptical about the idea of a big American company having that sort of vision in this day and age. However, if they did have that sort of vision suddenly it would be remarkable. I can’t see GM having the vision that Virgin had. (I know I know GM was hypothetical)

I’m kind of getting bored in America, because it seems like no one is really taking a chance anymore. The pioneering spirit seems to be dead here, and that’s a really sad thing, because to me that’s really all we ever had. Personally I would love to see every penny thrown at defense outside of the National Guard being thrown at the space program, it would be a way to scale back the military industrial complex without putting everyone in the country out of work.

I go through spurts with technology excitement. I’ve seen so much advancement in my lifetime that I get dulled to it, and then every once in a while I remember my childhood and think about how my life now would seem like science fiction to myself as a child. It’ll be interesting how all these technologies that have sprouted up since World War II start becoming mature and integrated with one another as time goes by, what seems like a ridiculous proposition today might be totally feasible twenty years from now. I think the most important advance is the way people are doing business now that the internet is in place. I see so many networks popping up all over the place of like-minded people all over the world putting their heads together onto big projects. Who knows what the age of corporate space flight will entail?

I think the space shuttle was a resounding success in what it has enabled us, and will enable us to do.

Erek

On the director’s commentary for Tucker: The Man and His Dream, Francis Ford Coppola states that he’s met people with gobs of money and he says he can’t understand why they don’t do anything with it. All of them just pour it back into mundane investments, whereas folks like Howard Hughes actually did something with their money.

You mean like Jeff Bezos of Amazon, who is buiding a spaceport in Texas?

Or John Carmack, the guy who made Doom, who used his millions to form Armadillo Aerospace?

Or Sir Richard Branson, who’s building commercial spaceships with Burt Rutan?

Or Paul Allen of Microsoft, who put up 20 million dollars for SpaceshipOne, donated the money to build the museum of science fiction, and who donated 13.5 million dollars to the SETI institute?

There are a surprising number of young millionaires and billionaires who are spending their money on great projects. This is the one positive fallout of the dot-com boom. It used to be that very rich men got that way either through a lifetime of hard work, or through inheritance. Either way, their money was tightly controlled and managed by teams of professionals and family. But today, there are tons of millionaires and a few billionaires who made their money in the dot-com windfall, and who find themselves still relatively young, rich, and bored. Many of them are also science fiction buffs and geeks, because they made their money in the computer industry and it attracts such people. Now they’re taking their billions and investing it in space and technology.

Yes, but those fellows are in the minority, I’m afraid, since there’s plenty of “old money” types still around who use their money to either make more (Bill Gates), or attract publicity to themselves (Paris Hilton). Of course, it could be worse, they could all be Osamas. :eek:

Well it also depends on what you find interesting and what you find dull. Certainly there are a lot of people who invest in things that do not interest them, but there are a lot of people who invest in interesting things because those interesting things happen from time to time.

My passion is parties. I have a strong community of people I work with out here, and it’s been a lot of fun over the years getting to know so many people that I can go to two parties in a row with hundreds of people, and know a lot of the people there when I walk in the door. To me a party is a form of art, and I would love to see investors throw money into it, I could do something one of a kind if I had investment because I could actually pay all my talented artist friends and do it up really nice. I’d love to have investment, and i could do something ridiculous with only $ 10k, but if I don’t find the right person to put money into it I’m screwed, because what interests me isn’t exactly all that profitable…unless of course you are schmoozing to get money for other projects, which I do as well. I generally lose money on these things though. The point I am making is there are so many things people are passionate about that are fascinating, and who knows, a Rothschild may be very interested in some new banking investment that I might not even understand, which I am certain that if I did, I would find it interesting. People fund their indie films by investments, that’s interesting to me. People put on big parties, they buy art, they fund X-Prizes, they invest in genomics, in Artificial intelligence. I don’t think Paris Hilton investing in her own publicity is exactly dull personally. There is a major art to selling yourself, and celebrities help facillitate deals you might not even imagine them being involved in on a regular basis. I think of all the introductions I’ve made, the tons of local celebrities I know, and the few national/international celebrities I’ve met, and the subtle and intricate interconnection between people is fascinating to me. With my extremely minor local celebrityhood I’m involved in the tech industry, politics, and entertainment in minor ways that are growing all the time, and I can see how fame works. It works on social currency that while not quantifiable with a dollar amount, has a definite value, and can do a whole lot for the individual wielding it. Just one example, I can pull a couple generators and at least three sound systems for an event without having to pay much for them, and that’s because of the gift culture economy in which I live, I am far wealthier in social currency than hard currency. On the other hand, I couldn’t even supply a widget for a spacecraft with that social currency.

It’s the dull investors that keep the economy chugging and ensure that it’s not gonna have extremely dramatic dips and dives. I do wish space were more on our radar though.

Erek

Charles Perrow has an interesting book: Normal Accidents: Living With High Risk Technologies.

It has an interesting thesis which applies directly to the space shuttle. In fact, the shuttle is an example he uses.

The gist of it is is that as long as we intend to to do extremely dangerous things accidents are going to happen.

The space shuttle is dangerous because it is inherently extreme and there is no way of getting around this fact. It is a highly complex device made of relatively fragile material. “Relative” is compared to the forces it controls and endures. We load this eggshell with high explosives which he then ignite. It then travels at ridiculous speeds under ridiculous conditions of stress.

In order to do this, it is necessarily highly complex. The more complex a machine is the more prone it is to failure.
This should all be fairly obvious so far. But here, perrow makes an interesting point.

Attempting to engineer out the danger is futile and will inerently have the opposite effect, making the machine more dangerous.

If you create another safety system to ameliorate the danger that safety system adds complexity to the device increasing its chances of failure.

Both shuttle accidents are the results of very minor degrees of failure in extremely complex machines. The first accident was simply o ring failure due to cold temerature. The second due to insulating foam specifically designed to prevent accidents.

A device like the shuttle is a series of engineering compromises. There are literally thousands of things like o-rings and insulation that people are screaming their heads off about as being unacceptable before every launch. There are always dire warnings.

Perrow goes on and on giving examples from airplanes about how safety devices have caused accidents, because they add complexity to what is an inherently dangerous undertaking.

Safety systems create an illusion of safety to inherently dangerous operations which actually makes them more dangerous.

Complexity adds danger to inherently risky circumstances. Malfunctioning coffee makers have brought down airliners on more than one occasion.

A good example is that of the prop plane. Almost nobody ever gets killed by walking into a spinning prop. Why not? It’s inherently dangerous. It’s out in the open. People are working all around them.

The danger very obvious. People take it seriously. People respect a spinning prop.

However, if you put turn that prop into a turbine and encase it in a hunk of metal like a jet engine, than it is not so obvious. People don’t respect it and they do stupid things, like sticking their hands or heads into them.

The inherent danger in safety systems due to their complexity and the illusion they create (along with the behavior it instills) can be seen quite clearly by an examination of accidents on Mount Hood in Oregon.

Mount Hood is a long slow grade. Anybody can climb it. The danger of course is that if you fall and start sliding you just keep going and picking up speed.

Every year climbers climb Mount Hood. Typically they rope themselves together for safety. Park Rangers call this a “Suicide pact.” If the guy at the bottom of the rope slips the guys above him have a reasonable chance of arresting the relatively small amount of energy he generates. The safety system however means that if the guy at the top of the rope falls he generates twice the momentum falling as the guy at the bottom before there is a chance to arrest the fall. There is basically no chance at all of stopping it. If the next guy in line falls then you have four times the energy at the next chance for an arrest. Impossible.

If the guy at the top falls, everybody falls. You have the snowball effect. The next thing that happens is that this mass of roped together people comes sliding down Mount Hood taking everybody else beneath out as well.

This happens depressingly frequently on Mount Hood.
In this particular example we do have a good analogy of the space shuttle. People, like the shuttle, are relatively fragile. Climbing several thousand steps up a mountain is a complex act, as is launching a vehicle into space.

In both cases we are working with very large forces. The space shuttle’s energy and the forces it is working with are obvious, but the kinetic potential in climbing Mount Hood is also very large. It’s a long way down, and you build up a lot of energy along the way.

The danger in launching the space shuttle and climbing Mt. Hood is identical. In both cases you are trying to safely manage a potentially catastrophic level of kinetic energy. Sliding down Mt. Hood, and sliding into earth’s atmosphere is an identical problem from a physics standpoint.

The more complex the system used to complete the task, the more it is prone to failure, thus the higher risk. Safety systems add complexity and therefore risk.

Perrow’s theme is that if you are working with complexity and high levels of forces accidents are a normal occurence. To minimize them one needs to strip the action to it’s essentials. Adding complexity in terms of fallible safety systems only adds to the risk (and thus the eventual certainty) of failure.

Bill Gates is the biggest Philanthropist in history. Last year he gave away the single biggest gift in history - 3 billion dollars to the Bill and Melinda Gates foundation.

Hey, I didn’t say the Gatester was completely evil, and IMHO, he could get better results in aleviating the worlds problems by spending his money on space, but it is, of course, his money and he has the right to do with it whatever he wants, and I have the right to bitch about it however I want. :smiley:

And in the interest of fairness, Paris Hilton’s father has said that the moment space travel becomes economical, he will put a hotel in orbit, and he’s been saying this for about twenty years now.

Well, there are compromises and there are compromises. In the book of recollection of Richard Feynman, “What Do You Care What Other People Think?”, he recalls the discoveries he made while serving on the Challenger panel, namely that the O-Rings were put to a purpose they were never meant for. the rockets were constructed in sections, and two O-rings filled the seam between each pair of sections. The idea was that the super-hot gasses trying to escape would cause the rubber O-rings to expand and seal the gap. Sections of them were found to be burned away after every lift-off. This was hardly a design for safety, but a low-bid design. It’s actually wuite astounding that disaster hadn’t struck earlier.

As far as the insulation is concerned, the fragility of the tiles and the inability to examine them is part of the obsolescence of the shuttle. Once we showed it could be done at all, we should have let them expire at the end of their natural life span, which, IMO, was at least a decade and a half ago. I don’t agree with the OP that the shuttle was a failure in its intention, but that its intention was thwarted from the get-go. Nixon slashed NASA’s buget, the shuttle was deemed the one project on their agenda that could be saved, but they had to screw with the specs to make it something the military wanted, not something designed for what NASA wanted to do with it. By the time it hit the launch pad, it was designed to be a costly project that couldn’t hope to create the kind of income they wanted, and at that, it succeeded. But somewhere along the way we showed that reusable spacecraft of some sort was possible, and it has long been time to move things to the next level.

A couple of points here:

Feynman, although a clever guy, was not an engineer and got some of the details of how and why the o-rings are used on the SRB wrong. It’s minor, nitpicky stuff, but the idea that the use of the o-rings in that capacity is inappropriate in conception is incorrect. However, as he notes in his report, the fact that the o-rings were showing any wear (I think they were showing around 30% erosion IIRC) was an out-of-design condition, yet NASA and Thiokol agreed that this represented a safety margin of 230% ((1-.30)/.30), instead of a component failure. His full report (not included in the original Rogers Commission report but found in the back of What Do You Care What Other People Think) details the cultural problems in NASA which continue to exist today and lead to the same sort of risk-denial that lead to the Columbia failure.

Thiokol (now ATK/Alliant) continues to use the same joint construction on virtually all of their solid rocket motors, largely without problem. The blowpast issue is one of design tolerances and expected part degredation during operation, not a fundamental flaw in the design.

What o-rings were originally designed for, what their inventory concieved of their operation versus the reality, and how they are used today is a very interesting topic in a Henry Petroski-type of way. However, it’s beyond the scope of this thread, but needless to say, they function in many ways that their inventor never considered, some appropriate and others not. In my experience most engineers don’t really understand how o-rings function, how they should be specified, and what causes them to fail. The same could be said, though, for threaded fasteners, rivets, and bearings.

Stranger

Yes, NASA’s problems continue to exist today because NASA would rather meet launch date than live with delays of stress-tolerance testing, HALT testing, HASS, and ESS testing to name a few of the ISO required testing and reporting… if they accepted an out-of-spec component, they had to sign quite a bit of paperwork stating exactly that, moreover their responsibility of the lifetime performance of that component.

Ummmm, certain type of engineers of OEMs DO in fact understand…, it’s the SALES people and NASA reps, for instance, who make compromises… it’s just a good thing that OEMs keep 1 original copy of customer-accepted test reports, at least those companies that care about their industry-wide reputation for quality control.

The way I understood it was that o-ring seals are not typically expected to compensate for “joint rotation”. If you look at the Parker O-Ring Manual, they describe many, many applications, all of which involve relatively rigid sealing surfaces that only experience large movement in such a direction to cause sliding along the o-ring (as opposed to opening up the joint, the way the SRBs did). I thought that was what the Parker engineer quoted in Feynman’s report meant in saying that the o-rings were “not meant to be used in that way.”

They substantially redesigned the joint - details here . Still, nobody wants to use segmented motors any more because of Challenger. Shortly after Challenger, the Titan SRMUs were redesigned to reduce the number of field joints from seven to three, because the Air Force was antsy about the joints. The last Titan goes this summer, and after that, once the Shuttle flies out, there won’t be any more segmented solids in the U.S. Titan and the Shuttle are the only two segmented solids still in production.

I haven’t read the book Scylla cites, but it sounds like nonsense to me. Dangerous failure modes of complicated machines can certainly be mitigated by smart design. It’s naive to think that the engineers who designed the Shuttle weren’t aware of the tradeoffs (in terms of risk) involved in the various design options. A modern example is the Aerojet SRMs for the Atlas V - they are big but monolithic (unsegmented). I can guarantee you that the risk of undetectably cracking the propellant grain due to difficulties in handling those very large motors was weighed against the risk of a field joint failure.

There are two reasons to test hardware - to characterize the failure modes (see how it breaks) and to quantify the probability of failure (to see what chance there is of it breaking in a particular way). Generally, technologies that do not have well-understood failure modes are not used on space launch vehicles. Provided one is willing to spend enough money and time, the probability of failure can be made much smaller than it is now. In both Shuttle failures, and in the recent Delta IV Heavy screwup, just to grab three examples off the top of my head, modestly more testing could have prevented all three. It is a question not of irreducible risk, but of tough (and occasionally dumb) decisions involving the trading of reliability against performance, cost and schedule.

Mr. Perrow needs to learn more about the concepts of Failure Modes, Effects, and Criticality Analysis, and Risk Mitigation. They are very standard stuff in the world of complex equipment design, and their intensive application makes air travel the safest form of transportation that exists. Engineers do spend a great deal of paranoia thinking about what might go wrong and trying to either prevent it or provide redundancy against it or limit the consequences. A failure mode that has catastrophic results but a minimal chance of occurrence has the same severity as a nuisance that happens often, in that approach - the modes that fall in between get severe attention paid to them.

I’m very puzzled, btw, at the assertion that people commonly stick their hands and heads into jet engines because they aren’t aware of the dangers. I don’t know of any example of that.

The Challenger O-ring failure was well-known and well-understood by the engineers responsible. The failure was one of management, at Thiokol mainly but also at NASA, that chose to ignore their concerns. It had nothing to do with complexity. Neither, for that matter, did the Columbia crash - the responsible engineers were badly worried about the problem, but again management (this time in NASA alone) couldn’t be bothered. Complacency kills - and even if it isn’t your own complacency.

Stranger’s summary of O-ring joint design issues is correct, btw. Also btw, Gates transferred a pile of money from one of his pockets to another, the size of which should not be impressive. What he’s done with it is what matters.

What I meant that the joint flexure (or rotation, as you put it) was not an intended or expected mode in operation. The o-rings were supposed to provide sealing, although you are correct in your assertion in how they should be used. Essentially, an o-ring has a range of compressibility, and any joint which permits too much flexure, so that compression is not maintained on one section of the o-ring, is in an out-of-design condition. This was apparent from the first, as recovered cases showed erosion on the rings due to blow-past of propellent, but because it didn’t lead to a “failure” of the ring it was determined to be a non-issue as it didn’t lead (yet) to operational failure of the system; sort of like driving your car around with a missing lug nut but not replacing it because the wheel hasn’t flown off yet.

With Challenger and the other Shuttles, it never became a critical problem until they launched in a cold environment where the gasket couldn’t flex fast enough to keep the joint sealed. NASA engineers (well, some of them) just assumed that the longer flights went on without a failure, the less likely this was to be a problem, which is arse-backward in statistical failure assessment, but that’s the same reasoning that lead them to believe that the insulation cracking problem wasn’t an issue.

BTW, as Feynman tells it at least, he wasn’t the one who discovered the o-ring resiliance issue; rather, Maj. Gen. Donald Kutyna suggested it to him and let him run with it. Feynman later speculated that Kutyna might have had some inside knowledge but prefered not to put his own career in danger and so let the already eccentric Feynman take the heat. I don’t know how factual that is (Feynman tends to paint himself with a “Gee, did I do that?” disingenouity which serves to make him look modest and brilliant at the same time) but that was his assertion.

Here is a link to link for the Rogers Commission Report and Feynman’s addenda.

You are correct about the move away from segmented motors–not only because of customer requirements but also because of the increased manufacturing complexity and cost as opposed to building the tooling and equipment to handle larger casts of propellent–but the joints at either ends of the motor, where the domes connect, use a similar design and potentially could have the same problem, although being at the ends the bending moment is considerably less. As long as the joint is designed to accept maximum case pressures without giving too much, it’s not an issue. Well, maybe…it depends on who you talk to.

This is true, but in all fairness, understanding of potential failure modes is mostly an empirical matter. A machine as complex, with so many factors to take into account as the Shuttle is beyond a simple, first principles analysis. Much of what we know about appropriate airframe and controls design now has come from failures of the past. With the Shuttle, we never really had (or allowed for) time to make mistakes. We built it, we flew it, flaws and all. With the Gemini/Mercury/Apollo program, we developed in steps (although some were pretty big steps) rather than giant conceptual leaps.

Still, NASA has tended to massage (or in some cases, outright manufacture) estimates of failure based upon unfounded assumption, gross oversimplification, and unwarranted optimism. Feynman related an anecdote where he asked a group of engineers and their manager to give off-the-cuff estimates on the failure of the SRB (or main engines…I forget). Most of the engineers gave numbers on the order of 1:1000. The manager, after trying to weasel out of giving any answer, finally offering 1-ε as being the chance of a successful flight, ε defined as “a very small number” and then “.00001”. Feynman was boggled; 1 flight a day for 300 years before failure! (That’s actually bad statistics; you’d have a 66.5% chance of failure for those odds over that timespan, but I’m guessing he didn’t want to assume a knowledge of basis statistics in a nontechnical book.)

Well, the problem with the Shuttle issues was well known before the failures, although testing those particular problems under the extrema of launch conditions possibly would have demonstrated that they were actually in a condition of failure. The Delta IV Heavy failure was, well, complex, but in essence you are correct; in a rush to meet the delivery schedule they cut corners, not only on testing but inspection, verification, an analysis, in concert with some poor design procedures (i.e. not rigidly securing wiring harnesses and control cables near the interstage.)

We see this kind of thing all the time here, and I’m sure you see it too. These systems and the design, analysis, and testing are so complex that it defies any attempt to make an accurate estimate of the cost and schedule at the beginning of the program, and yet contractors are held to fixed bids even in the face of unforseen technical problems and shifting requirements and specifications, so in the end, testing and analysis gets trimmed to make target dates and stay within budget. If Apollo had had this limitation it would have died on the vine in '66 or '67 (within sight of a moonshot).

I’m not saying projects can’t be kept to a budget and timeframe–JPL does this all the time with a lot of their unmanned programs–but when a project becomes loaded down with political maneuvering and ulterior motives, i.e. the Shuttle or the GBI, then all hell breaks loose as everyone tries to stick their thumb in the pie, or add salt to the soup, or something. :rolleyes:

Stranger

“Much of what we know about appropriate airframe and controls design now has come from failures of the past. With the Shuttle, we never really had (or allowed for) time to make mistakes.”

Generally yes, but there *had * been similar O-ring joint failures, with known causes, on similar Titan IIIC boosters before. That’s why the responsible Thiokol engineers were so active about their protests of the launch rules. The bending of the SRB (resulting in joint rotation) in response to the “twang” of engine ignition was known as well. The Columbia foam failure is more excusable on that basis, but still, the signs were there to be seen as well. But the basic flaw was not in the technology or with those persons most in contact with it, but in management procedures and attitudes.

Delta IV Heavy could have easily been prevented had LOX tank discharge tests or analyses been conducted over the full range of operating conditions. Instead, someone tried to “guess” the enveloping condition to avoid testing over a larger range of condtions, but the guess was wrong.

The way I see it, as soon as they noticed a condition with the O-rings that was not part of the initial design, this should have triggered a new FMEA and a complete analysis of the situation. Any time a component exceeds its control limits, it should trigger an exception review. And the shuttle shouldn’t have been allowed to fly again until they determined exactly why the O-rings behaved as they did, and came up with a predictable model for how they would behave throughout the operational envelope the Shuttle flies in.

Part of the problem, though, is that the Shuttle was still a test vehicle. Its operational envelope was being expanded with every flight. Why in hell they ever thought they should start flying school teachers in flight test is beyond me. For PR reaons, NASA started portraying the Shuttle as a big space airliner or something. They should have been telling the public that every flight was dangerous as hell, and that the astronauts were heros every time they went up. Then maybe the public reaction wouldn’t have been quite so devastating.

It was precisely because the Shuttle was supposed to be something other than an extravagant testbed that this costly fiction was promoted. To have done otherwise would have been to publically admit NASA had essentially wasted many tens-of-billions of taxpayer dollars, and would continue to do so throughout the STS’s lifespan. Somehow killing Christa McAuliffe live on TV in front of tens of millions of viewers failed to make these people look bad enough for them to lose their jobs.

Nature can never be fooled, but apparently damn-near everybody else can.

Etc. More immediately, it would have been adequate to delay launch until the ambient temperature rose back into the certified range - that’s all the Thiokol engineers were demanding. Expanding the envelope isn’t always worth the trouble if it’s easy to just get back inside it.

No, not really. It was adding hours, not capability. Envelope expansions are planned and studied and risk-analyzed and risk-mitigated; the decision to launch in 40F temps was none of those.

To keep it flying by expanding its popular support base, of course. The manned spaceflight program budget has faced strong skepticism all along. Bush 1’s decision to pick a New Hampshire teacher for the program, just before the state’s kickoff primary election, was pretty transparent, too.