I believe that the fact the human brain has an extremely hard time in comprehending that at some point in the future it will cease to exist, is the main reason why people (in general) believe that there is a god that in some shape or form grants eternal life. I am an atheist, and in definition I don’t believe in any form of a biblical god and much less in any form of an after life. Inexplicably however, I have always had an extremely hard time in trying to coerce my brain in accepting the fact that it (I) will one day cease to function and die, thus never having another memory or experiencing another moment of self awareness. My brain refused to accept it. Every time I tried to perceive this, I experienced the same sensation (or lack there of) as while trying to embrace the concept of infinity! It’s an incomprehensible train of thought, even to an atheist.{i}Then suddenly a moment of enlightenment*. There is a perfectly feasible analogy that helped in making sense in this unfathomable, yet inescapable eventuality of non-existence. There was already a point in time when my brain wasn’t self-aware hence had never before even experienced a memory. It’s obviously the billions of years that have passed before the time I was born. I now no longer have trouble in accepting my demise since I don’t see a difference between the state of pre-existence and that of death? Life simply seems to be the period (thanks to the Big Bang and Evolution) between the two bookend states of non-existence. Can anyone explain to me (a devout atheist) any deviations in these two extremes?
I’m really not trying to be argumentative here. I’m just seeking alternative points of view. I need a little help in understanding some perplexing subjects in this world. Not so much subjects such as Quantum Mechanics, as that of subjects pertaining to creationism.
Our dear friend Libertarian (who has taken a break from these boards for a while) puts forward a different view in this debate on this subject, namely that one exists as part of God for all time and that this life represents a mere temporally distinct “ablation”. (I could possibly provide a little expansion upon beliefs like this but would not likely do them justice.)
To: inlikeflynn. I’m with you. I get a certain amount of peace from looking at death as the same as pre-existence. One would have to be “alive” to be in a state where you could “miss” life. I didn’t pine for life before I was born and I won’t crave it after I die. As well I take some comfort in a quote of Hemingway’s. When he was asked by his grandchild{ if I remember correctly} if he was afraid of death, Hemingway said" If everyone else can go through it, I guess I can too." We are all in this together and we are not asked to go through something that everyone else doesn’t have to go through. We all must find a way of dealing with personal mortality. The difference between us Atheists and the religious is we have more guts!{ my opinion only}.
I would agree that there is no difference with respect to my sensation and my cognition between my pre-existence and my death. Conceiving of non-existence has never been something I could do. The best I’ve ever really done is… well, I can explain by way of analogy, and that is by picturing my body as there without me in it, which almost doesn’t make sense. It is like my house without me in it… empty, but I’m still looking at it, so I must still exist somewhere to perceive this and so I didn’t conceive of my non-existence.
I once thought about what it would be like to describe dying or knowing absolutely one was going to die (say a man with a tape recorder jumping to his death from a very great height) or being dead (say if there were ghosts). Several personal thought experiments made me feel like these events are not describeable as they have no inter-subjective basis on which to build a meaningful symbol-set, but I’ve never tried discussing it with anyone before because I mostly figured they would think I was sending them “I’m suicidal” messages or something and not pay attention to what I was trying to say.
That is very interesting erislover but in trying to force your mind into facing it’s own demise is pointless. I believe it to be some sort of defensive cognitive stance for our brains not to be able to face death. If we could fathom death, we just might give up on this whole life experience, if it is and we believe it to be a pointless exercise. I really wish it weren’t so but, I can’t perceive a different outcome.
No, lekatt, you take it too strongly, I merely picture my body, say, after a fall, or in a casket, or otherwise dead. But of course, that isn’t non-existence, that’s someone looking at a dead body and having an identity crisis.
InLikeFlynn, if all knowledge comes from experience (directly or indirectly) then it would make sense that we couldn’t know stuff about what it is like to not exist… of course, it isn’t like anything.
True. Do you think this viewpoint is built into our minds for evolutionary reasons though. Could sublime knowledge that ‘we’ as individuals don’t matter be a subliminal motivation for us to be more social & pass on our genes so our memory can survive?
A lot of things are built into the brain. Just look at the animal kingdom. There are some extraordinary behaviours there that are not learned by experience or observation, but they are just there from birth.
Sometimes I wonder if this could be the point of living. I am pretty much an atheist also. Taking part in a small portion of life itself you contribute to the evolution of the brain and hopefully make for a happier species of man in the end.
Right or wrong, I also find this idea closely connected to the Collective Unconscious of Carl Jung.
A time before I was born as acceptable to me… Now that I am alive a later time without me is not.
Sure at that point, given your initial assumption that there is no life after death, I won’t know anything, however at the moment of my death I will be pretty angry about it! I will know what I am missing and will probably miss and that annoys me no end.
Trust me When I go into the ground there will be a pissed off look on my face that teh mortician won’t be able to remove and I’ll make sure my Tombstone states Here lies [Kingpengvin] and he’s bloody annoyed!
inlikeflynn I also take your initial assunption to be correct, that there is no life-after death.
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Actually if death means ‘cessation of life’ (my own definition) then I find it conceptually impossible to think of ‘life-after-cessation of life’. Kind of like having the cake in your hand having just eaten the cake.
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Taken that way, then death is a state of non-existence, in exactly the same way that pre-life is a state of non-existence. It becomes illogical to fear one and not the other. They reference an identical state of (non)being.
BTW, I like your bookend statement - very clear and concise
