The State of Spock these days. ** Spoilers Abound **

Cafe Society
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Fair Notice: Spoilers on the newest Star Trek reboot as well as other Star Trek films and t.v. episodes will abound in this thread !!!

Okay, then. If you read this thread, you will be reading spoiler information on the new film. In case the warning above wasn’t enough. :smiley:

A bit of background. I’m almost 51. Got bit hard by Star Trek TOS in the early 1970’s when it first hit syndication. Attended a few Star Trek Conventions in Philly and one in NYC. By perhaps 1976 or so I was burning out a bit but those glory years had several lasting effects

  • I grew to love the process of filmmaking because of behind-the-scenes books such as The Making of Star Trek by Stephen E. Whitfield and The Trouble With Tribbles by David Gerrold. I’ve been a professional cinematographer for 33 years partially due to the interest fostered in this arena.

  • I appreciate TOS for what it was and have enjoyed to some degree all of the iterations. Even The Motion Picture ( yes, it is to gag, but it sure was a milestone ).

  • The level of intellectual rigor applied to this particular fantasy universe was already fully fleshed when, for example, Star Wars debuted.

Just saw Star Trek: Into Darkness. I know there are threads discussing this film and it’s reboot predecessor. I’d like to dig into the most pivotal character to emerge from the entire Star Trek ouvre. Spock. Back in the day, Leonard Nimoy’s portrayal earned him bags and bags full of fan mail. Everyone was drawn to and dare I say fascinated by this character.

Well, bless JJ Abrams and Co. In the crafting of the first reboot, they created a time schism. This has allowed for Spock from two times to co-exist. I do love me some time travel tales, always have. But for this character in particular, the framework being developed adds layers upon layers to what this creature is and may become.

Let’s touch upon the Freudian for a moment. In this current reboot, Spock has lost his mother. She died in the first film. While his father lives and continues to be a guiding force in his life as he matures as a Vulcan/ Human male, it is fair to say that Original Spock ( portrayed, thank god, By Nimoy who did not make good on his announcement of retirement. ) has become what few of us could have foreseen: a parental figure that is one’s self from a future time that in fact will never come to pass.

I grok this ( :smiley: ). It’s a compelling method by which the current Spock can nuance his way through difficulties big and small. Inner voice no more- now ( as we saw late in the most recent offering ) Spock can literally call himself up for advice on how he did / will handle an adversary.

I’ve been thinking about this since I saw it a few days ago. This could rapidly become a dumb ploy. Spock gets stuck? He calls himself up for help. I’m giving the writers more credit for that. This trick- and it was a good trick- should be used so rarely that once a film would be too much.

As many of us do, we relate fictitious characters to our own experiences. My daughter graduates from college tomorrow, and is full of piss and vinegar towards me. ( for some good as well as inane reasons !).

Spock’s strength is his filo dough-like layering. Would I wish to know now what I knew 21 years ago when The FemBot™ first entered my life as a wee baby daughter? Yeah sure. But process is everything, n’est pas? My process of life- like all of ours: messy, glorious, humbling, invigorating, shitty, elating and all else - is mine to track. Would I benefit from short-cuts? From my older Cartooniverse strolling into my life at the age of 24? I dunno. I’m not sure I’d want to have known.

But since this is artifice and no animals were harmed in the creation of this cinematic play, it’s all fair game. I admire the device. To advance the filo dough analogy a few more sticky tasty layers, you can layer up pretty nicely with sweet sickly honey and a few handfuls of crushed nuts :eek: and find yourself looking at a tasty morsel. Or you can leave out the layering of sweetness and crushing hardness and have just dry layers with no binder.

Spock is his own binder, it seems to me looking back to TOS that he always has embodied balance and conflict. Firmly in the Less Is More school ( thank god ), Nimoy made us think about him. The writers ran with this subtlety and gave some of the most solid and interesting stories back in the day. Surely fair to say that Nicholas Meyer’s Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan piled layers upon layers more. Life. Death. Rebirth.

I’m hoping for restraint with this new franchise. I’m hoping that Paramount holds its juice and allows for breathing room here. For there to be enough time and layers applied and examined and enjoyed for this new reboot not to jump the shark by the end of the third installation.

I’m hoping that this remarkably flexible artifice of two Spocks existing in the same universe isn’t beaten to death but simply becomes an acknowledged part of Spock’s reality.

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When I saw the first reboot movie, I thought, at the end, that “old Spock” is now the most powerful person in the galaxy. He knows things. He knows what is going to happen.

He knows about the Doomsday device. He knows about the giant space amoeba. He knows about Khan (ahem!) He knows about Ceti Alpha Six. Five. Whatever. He knows about the Kilngon refinery planet’s unstable design. He knows about the Mirror universe. He knows about the Bajoran wormhole. He knows about the Melkotians and the “First Federation” (Fesarius and Balok) and the Gorns and the Borg.

All of these things are independent of the alternate history! They’re all out there, waiting for us to stumble into them. Except, this time, we won’t stumble! He can plan out a strategy of first contacts to maximize our benefit! He’ll be able to save countless lives.

(Imagine if you could go back to 1800, and tell people about California and Klondike Gold, Nevada Silver, and South African diamonds!)

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Fascinating. :wink: This did not occur to me at all.

We have to give Old Spock his due- he made it clear that his value is to the nascent Vulcan colony in search of a new planet. Wisdom and self-restraint are one thing but you raise a superb point.

It’s one thing to want your Younger Spock self to experience life as it unfolds. But the weight of millions of deaths on your shoulders because you remained silent with all that you know?

It would drive even a half-Vulcan insane. Or should…

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One wonders if he’ll follow the ‘Prime Directive’ - he is, after all , from an advanced race and should not interfere in the evolution of those he is visiting.

Except he already has, simply by being there.

I do not blame young Spock for calling him - you never leave a stone unturned when you know there is something to be learned from looking - but I do hope that it does not become a crutch - I don’t see it as them shoe horning in Nimoy - I see it as them showing ‘wisdom’ in young Spock in knowing to ask.

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Me too. But we don’t want to be witnessing the birth of the phrase, " Jumped The Vulcan", now do we?

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I thought about this, but this is Spock we are talking about, he is bound to follow a directive of not changing the future with even more determination than his “stick to the rules” passion when following the prime directive.

And I think that the destruction of Vulcan did show him that millions can die as result of going back in time. And this is just speculation, but I do wonder if in a future movie it will be revealed that some underhanded method was used by people like Starfleet Admiral Marcus to get at least the information about the whereabouts of Khan from the mind of Spock Prime.

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I haven’t seen the most recent movie – a friend, only today, filled me in on the details, so I only have it by hearsay and word of mouth… But…

I was cranky that they changed something about the time-line that happened before the fork-in-time of the reboot history. Khan was sent into space in the Botany Bay long before the time-altering events of the reboot movie. Why, now, have him in suspended animation on earth and not adrift in space? Are the historical alterations propagating backward in time? Do we have to worry about Star Trek movies where Rome never fell – in the primary time-line?

My friend also noted that when you get all of the top Starfleet officers together in one room – there isn’t a single woman. This is a huge violation of Roddenberry’s original vision. That made me mad enough not to want to see the damn thing…

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IIRC - there was a line in the movie where a different ship found the Botany Bay - clearly before TOS timeline, but still in synch with them having been sent into space on a sleeper ship.

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I like the idea of having an older Spock available for the occasional consultation. We see, in STID, that he’s exceedingly careful of saying too much and disturbing the timeline. Assuming Nimoy even wants to do any more movies, it will be easy to keep the older version of Spock from meddling too much or being a Vulcaneus ex machina - the ship could always be out of subspace communication range with New Vulcan when necessary for the plot.

And may I say, IMHO, Quinto has a good grip on the character, but still seems too babyfaced, and his bangs just look ridiculous.

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Specifically, Star Fleet stumbled across the Botany Bay because their reaction to the destruction of Vulcan sent them scouring the galaxy for dangerous things.

Personally, I’m of the opinion that Old Spock’s oath is a silly idea: this is the Spock who approves of Jim Kirk cheating. What better way to cheat, than knowing the outcome in advance? He’d’ve spilled the beans about what he knows tout de suite.

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While talking to a person that I know (or believe) to be my future self ought to impart some profound “wake up call”, I’m afraid that the advice may fall on somewhat uncomprehending ears, much like advise from a parent to their child.

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Your older self would know just how to get your attention, though, and you would soon learn that you ignore his advice at your peril.

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Now, what they could do, to tell good stories, would be to construct elaborate plans based on all of these things they know, and then have those plans fail because some of what they know is no longer applicable. Like, say, Old Spock warns New Spock that Khan is dangerous and ruthless and not to be trusted, but then Khan doesn’t actually betray them, because that’s not in his best interest and he has no reason to hold a personal grudge against Kirk.

Yeah, that would have been an option.

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Alright, someone has to go for the cheap joke and it might as well be me. sigh

Isn’t that what Uhura did in the reboot?

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I haven’t seen the movie, but have seen some reviews on Youtube and Trek.bbs.

What did SpockPrime tell NewSpock that he didn’t already know?

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“A pasty Englishman? Don’t bother me with this crap. Once again – and I can’t stress this enough – don’t trust a dark-complected Indian named Khan. You’ll know him anywhere: he’s got skin like rich, Corinthian leather.”

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a) That khan was not to be trusted, that the last encounter with him was won at ‘great cost’
b) the only way to win was not to play the game - wait, thats not it -

Beyond that - we don’t know - I suspect that SpockPrime told him something to the affect that ‘give him what he wants’ - and NewSpock took that to the next level with the torps - give him what he thinks is what he wants.

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The main thing that Spock told him that was helpful here is that Khan’s main motivation is his people and thier safety. That was the lever that New Spock would be able to use against Khan. That was the one thing that would not have changed between timelines.

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I’m giving the character ( writers… ) more credit than " taking it to the next level ". Spock is learning more and more about the virtues of being invirtuous. He sent the 72 torpedoes because he was told to. He wasn’t told to send the improper CONTENTS of those torpedoes.

Vulcans learn to smirk… it doesn’t come naturally, but I do believe they can learn.