The Supremes sing again!

(sigh)

So much willful ignorance, so little wit.

Thousands and thousands of voters trudged to the polls and did not vote for president, hence, the “undervote”. They had firm convictions regarding County Commissioner for Parks, Gardens, and Flowerbeds, but couldn’t be bothered with voting for President. Right. Got it.

Palm Beach County has had an astounding influx of right wing screwballs over the last few years. Thousands, literally, were drawn to this quiet little retirement community. After all, there is a large contingent of Jewish persons there, and everyone knows that Jewish folks are positively all atwitter for Buchanan’s Christian Millenialist positions, not to mention his views on Germany and the Holocaust, which they find positively endearing, bubbeh. (As we Texans say, “Feh!”.)

So its not at all surprising that ten times as many voters in that county voted for Pat than in any neighboring county, or any county in the whole damn country, for that matter. Why, the only people who like Pat better than Jews is hippies!

Why, that’s it! They were stoned! Standing there, munching Oreos, giggling, and thought, “Dude! I’m gonna vote for Pat Buchanan! Whoa, that would be like, cool” The n later they tried to cover it up by claiming to be confused.

Bullshit! He got as many legitimate votes in that county as would David Duke have gotten in Harlem!

All right, all right, if for no other reason than to shut ElvisL1ves up, and make Stoidela’s day, I’m going to apologize. I would like to note I have never called any analysis by xenophon41 into question that I am aware of; he hadn’t posted when I got upset. And RTFirefly did at least attempt to make some analysis, even if I think it is legally naive. I was making comment at the time based not only on this thread, but on commentary in multiple threads on the subject, and that likely did not come through.

But what was upsetting me wasn’t the attempt to analyze by RTFirefly; it was the sort of statement represented by “the fix is in” and “They have surrendered even the merest shred of legitimacy”, both of which were directed at the action of the Supreme Court of the United States. THAT sort of statement is, in my mind, not acceptable, and makes very unpersuasive any attempted analysis of the legal issues that follows.

As for ElvisL1ves, he still doesn’t understand ad hominem arguement. Suffice it to say I don’t engage in it, and it is still too bad he doesn’t like when I tell him he’s wrong. :wink:

And Stoidela I wasn’t being condescending; I was being exasperated and obnoxiously so. I don’t think that I’m the only one who can analyze a legal position, nor that I’m even the best at it. As for what I do, it is quite irrelevant to the question of whether or not what I say here has value. You won’t note me trying to assail your arguements on the basis of what you do or don’t do with your life. :wink:

Unfortunately, Counselor, you definition of an ad hominem argument cannot be acceptable, because, after all, you are a lawyer.

Actually, about 2200–2800 of the 3407 votes that Buchanan got (probably closer to the higher number) were meant for someone else (probably mainly Gore because of the ballot design). That number can be determined with a large degree of statistical confidence. I’m not saying they should be asigned to Gore, but you seem to be implying by your statement that you don’t believe that Buchanan got a substantial number of votes that weren’t meant for him and that, my friend, is just willful ignorance.

I think the point is that it is unfortunate (and in some sense unfair) when someone loses an election not because fewer voters went to the polls intending to vote for him then his opponent but because they failed to register those intentions correctly because of various confusions. That does not necessarily imply that any legal remedy should be applied. The statement that it is just “tough luck” for those voters and that candidate is a perfectly defensible position to have (and, in fact, the one that has been found to be legally correct by the courts in the case of the PBC ballot confusion issues), but I think to deny it happened in this case is not.

“Willful ignorance”? Isn’t that now the definition of a Florida voter? Punch card ballots, which have been in use for years and years and years, in places all over the US, are not exactly rocket science. They even said make sure all of your chads are punched out.

We’ve heard other allegations of people not knowing where their polling place was. Oh, isn’t that too bad.

And my personal favorite, Haitian-Americans complaining that the voting instructions weren’t available in Creole. Do the names “Bush” and “Gore” somehow translate differently in Creole? Didn’t think so.

Having reviewed the FSC decision, and the oral arguments to the US Supreme Court, I don’t think that I would overturn the decision, distasteful as it is. Basically, the central arguments of the Bush camp are 1. the problems with varying standards (Equal Protection), and 2. the idea that the FSC has made new law, by applying an “interpretation” that is far removed from actual law. I would not support either argument.

As for 1., the significant point (as has been made by RTFirefly earlier and raised by Bois and repeated by Justice Ginsburg during the oral arguments) that the different voting systems in place in different counties already assure a different likelihood of a vote being counted depending on the county that a voter lives in. I have not seen any refutation of this.

As for 2., the relevant fact (noted by the FSC and again by Justice Souter) is that the statute gives the judge the ability to “fashion such orders as he or she deems necessary to ensure that each allegation in the complaint is investigated, examined or checked” etc. It would seem that no matter what order is issued by the FSC, it cannot be deemed to be “new law”, as it would automatically fit under the umbrella of an order that the FSC deems necessary etc.

The only relevant objection concerns the issue of whether the contest procedure envisions a review de novo or gives some presumption of accuracy to the certification of the SoS, and the work of the canvassing commissions. In this area Justice Scalia properly seized on an inconsistency by the FSC, which accepted the previous manual recounts of the commissions of Volusia, Broward, and Palm Beach counties (as well as the partial recount in Miami-Dade), while looking at every other issue from scratch. This is an inconsistency that could well cost Bush the election, as Gore got over 500 votes in Broward County alone, mostly due
to dimpled chads (and gained alot from this in Miami as well). But I don’t see how the USSC can force the FSC to heel on this.

There are also other sections of the majority FSC opinion which struck me as bizarre. e.g. the interpretation of a decision allowing children etc. into the polling places (despite laws which prohibit anyone with no official purpose) in the context of interpreting the law in a manner such that the right to vote will not be frustrated. Clearly, in that case, the context of the law does not apply to such incidental persons; no comparison to this situation. Also the assertion that, by not examining the ballots, Sauls was presenting Gore with a Catch-22 situation, demanding evidence but refusing to look at it, is idiotic. But these seemed to be peripheral arguments.

Regarding the USSC decision, I think it is likely that they are motivated by the fact that the FSC is clearly a “kangaroo” court, out to help out Gore. Thus they (the FSC) are interpreting every ambiguity in Gore’s favor. The USSC is annoyed at this, and is (possibly) overstepping its authority in frustration.

Some general impressions of the oral arguments:

  1. You have to have sympathy for the lawyers who have to argue these cases. The justices have an enormous advantage, in that each one can hone in on the area that interests them the most (and for which they are best prepared), while the poor lawyer has to answer all questions.

  2. I thought Olsen gave the worst performance, failing to clearly enunciate his core position - what is the proper role for the state judiciary in an election. (Which is not to say that it’s his fault - he may be doing the best possible job with a weak position). Bois did better, and most of his problems were with practical aspects of recounts (standards). I thought Klock came off the best, despite his difficulty with the names.

  3. It’s incredible to read the transcripts, and then see the same words taken out of context or plain misunderstood by analysts and commentators. Very disheartening to someone like myself, who usually relies on such people.

OK, it’s time.

milroyj, you’re a troll. I’ve fed you for the last time.

Looking back over my posts, I can see that I gave that impression. Just to make it clear to everyone, DSYoungEsq and I have never butted heads over a point of fact or law and our exchange in this thread was initiated by my pedantic griping about the definition of “invalid.” Said gripe I now believe to have been ill considered, as my perception of condescension on the part of Mr. Young was not germaine to the subject under discussion, and my whininess in behalf of other posters was unnecessary (they can speak for themselves).

Uhhhh… never mind?

Maybe. But in my naivete, I raised an argument that I notice the Gore legal team included in their brief, and Boies raised in oral argument.

Well, in my naivete, I still think I’ve got pretty good justification for that. The only practical reason for the stay is if the handcount should potentially proceed, but by a more uniform standard. That’s dependent on differing approaches in the handcount running afoul of the Equal Protection Clause. As people from Boies to Jesse Jackson have pointed out, approaching this micro-issue with the EPC while ignoring much larger issues of differential treatment in treatment of FL votes, is a travesty of justice. Even Scalia should be able to see that, IMO, and I’m gonna keep saying this until a decent counter-argument is on the table.

And the whole ‘we can’t have the count cast a cloud over the legitimacy of the Bush fraudulency’ bit - I’ve been reading Supreme Court decisions for decades, and this is the first time I can recall that a Justice has said something that’s really had me spitting nails. Who is President-elect is precisely what we’re trying to determine, here. Scalia, even before the Gore team had a chance to refute Bush’s arguments, had determined the winner.

I would submit that, no matter how sure he was of his five votes, he had no business using language like that from the bench. I feel quite justified in calling him a partisan justice on the basis of those words. I may be legally naive, but unless the differing sides on the stay issue somehow find common ground in a decision, I submit that he’s done major and lasting damage to the reputation and legitimacy of this Court.

DSY, I think you’ve got it backwards. It’s much more reasonable for me to say things like I’ve been saying, here, than it was for Scalia to say that, there.