The Ten Commandments...in Michigan Schools...Argh.

They’re trying to do it here, too. Since this is the Pit, a hearty FUCK THIS NOISE to the Michigan Legislature if it passes.

I have nothing against the Ten Commandments, really. They’re pretty common sense. But the Ten Commandments presented as “THE TEN COMMANDMENTS” do not need to be posted in a public school. No matter how the legislation is worded, it’s still going to look like the state is promoting a particular religion that believes in one god.

Here’s a link to one bill. I’m not good at the link thing, so I hope this works:
http://www.michiganlegislature.org/txt/house.joint.res/1999-2000/hjro0000.htm

New Michigan State Motto: If Your Kids Don’t Learn The Ten Commandments, Sell Them!


Cristi, Slayer of Peeps

I made my husband join a bridge club. He jumps next Tuesday.

(title & sig courtesy of UncleBeer and WallyM7!)

Sell the Commandments? To whom? And how much would you charge?

:smiley:

“Why, sometimes I’ve believed as many as six impossible things before breakfast!” - the White Queen

I wonder what the ACLU will do about this. I’ll bet it’s something…


Yer pal,
Satan

http://www.raleighmusic.com/board/Images/devil.gif

TIME ELAPSED SINCE I QUIT SMOKING:
One week, two days, 20 hours, 50 minutes and 8 seconds.
394 cigarettes not smoked, saving $49.34.
Life saved: 1 day, 8 hours, 50 minutes.

sigh…I don’t know how politicians can defend this. As I noted before, of the 10 commandments, only 4 really have any application to school-age children (don’t lie, don’t steal, don’t kill, obey your parents). I doubt there are any schools that have a big adultery problem, but, what the hey, we’ll call it 5 anyway.

The other half, about keeping the sabbath holy, not having other gods, god’s name in vain, and such, are pure religious advertising. Teaching morality is one thing, but selling religion is quite another.

I’m stunned that the state government doesn’t see a problem with posting ‘morality’ when 50% of the listed items are hawking a particular faith.

Again with the religion in school bit. Come on, people! Get it through your heads that this is not allowed!


Cessandra

I would’ve gotten away with it, too, if it weren’t for those meddling kids!

A quick question about the separation of church & state thing, because I really don’t know.

Is putting the TC’s up in the public schools a violation if this? Public schools are in part funded by the government, so it seems to me that posting these would be an extremely direct violation.

I also live in a very culturally diverse city. There are lots of people here that are not Christian/Jewish/Muslim, the three main one-god religions. Could a student who does not practice a one-god religion sue, on the basis of religious discrimination, to get them removed?


Cristi, Slayer of Peeps

I made my husband join a bridge club. He jumps next Tuesday.

(title & sig courtesy of UncleBeer and WallyM7!)

Yes, it’s establishing a religion, which is a violation of the Constitution.

Lynn

The last I heard, they are not posting them as rules for the children to follow. They are introducing them as a part of US History. Now you can not dispute the fact the 10 Commandments is a part of US History. The people who founded this country were Bible believing people. Look at your money, “In God we trust.” That God is the same God that wrote the 10 Commandments. Look at the Jefferson Memorial.
So yes, posting them as rules for the kids follow is against some laws, but making them part of US History in Social Studies classes is not wrong.
The people who founded this country were escaping religious persecution so they wanted freedom of religion. That freedom of religion is you can be what ever religion you want and not be persecuted, the fact remains that the founders of this country were Christians and the 10 Commandments were their beliefs.
I know I am fighting an up hill battle, especially on this message board, but I am just trying to give you the other side of the argument.

If you want to decide that the 10 commandments should be taught as a part of US history, then all religions that have taken any part in the history of the United States would have to be included. To not do so would give an image of the government supporting one particular religion. Public schools are hard pressed enough to teach everything they have to as it is, and adding more is not the way to go. Beside, maybe the schools should realise that its THE PARENTS responsability to teach the child morality.

In short, no dont add the ten commandments… its either
A) unconstutional
B) going to be a pain in the tail to teach all religions that have ever participated in the United States


…for more silky smooth segues, write to “silky smooth segues” 610 n 10th street, Albuquerque NM 87109.

That phrase was not added until recently, in the 1950’s, when we were fighting the God-less Commies. Part of the reason was to demonstrate that God was on OUR side and who, by implication, was on THEIRS.

Of course, you have to be pretty arrogant to claim God is on your side. I mean, how do you know? Maybe He isn’t on your side, maybe He’s on no one’s side and is just an impartial observer.

Besides, I’ve always had trouble with that phrase for this reason: It obviously excludes atheists who do not “trust in God.” Anyone who does not trust in God cannot be part of “We,” can he? Former President George Bush Sr. once stated that he believed that atheists were not “real” Americans.

Sorry, you pitiful excuse for a President, I was born here and that makes me just as American as you.


Feel free to correct me at any time. But don’t be surprised if I try to correct you.

Thanks Lynn!

Oh Glyph: I will happily accept the Ten Commandments as part on United States history when you can show me Moses’ green card. Until then, I beg to differ.


Cristi, Slayer of Peeps

I made my husband join a bridge club. He jumps next Tuesday.

(title & sig courtesy of UncleBeer and WallyM7!)

No. Simply…no. Posting the 10 Commandments is not “teaching history” or “suggesting guidelines”.

It is blatant promotion of a religious belief. For those who hide behind arguments that “it’s generic, innocuous and doesn’t really matter”, YES it does.

This is NOT a Christian nation. If we live up to our ideals rather than political expedience, the state does not espouse OR deny on the basis of religion. Hanging religious rules subtlely but strongly promotes the faith showcased.

Don’t tell me, don’t EVER tell me, that this doesn’t draw lines. And it separates kids, already prone to tribal alliances, into adult sanctioned boundaries.

It is wrong, simply WRONG, to force kids in a public school into outcast status based on their family religious beliefs. It offends me on a basic level that putative Conservatives (thanks and roast in hell, Reagan) co-opted principle for votes.

Simple 60’s and proud fact: the state doesn’t dictate–or promote–religion. No child, of any religious background, should have basic, CIVIL opportunities for education colored by any religious bias.

No child, Jewish, Hindu, or whatever, should EVER have to feel excluded in a secular educational setting. And for those who promote the 10 Commandments; exactly how far will your principles extend for postings from the Torah, Koran, etc.?

On this, I have little patience. Carefully innocuous religious “historical” postings have a way of mutating into very unforgiving lines. Read history, damnit.

BTW, Passover started today at sundown, one of the most beautiful, ancient and meaningful religious observances known. Want wisdom, history and faith? Well, none of those should be even symbolically placed in conflict with CIVIL rights.

There is no state religion…and the conservative camp lost me for good when they equated national/local values with narrowly defined religious expedience.

Take down the Commandments. And don’t go the stupid liberal route of counter-posting of every other religious dogma.

Keep the whole roiling mess out of civic live. People of faith will LIVE that faith.

On a pissed-off roll,
Veb

:::sigh:::

[QUOTE]
Originally posted by Glyph:
Now you can not dispute the fact the 10 Commandments is a part of US History.
:::snip:::
The people who founded this country were escaping religious persecution so they wanted freedom of religion. That freedom of religion is you can be what ever religion you want and not be persecuted, the fact remains that the founders of this country were Christians and the 10 Commandments were their beliefs.

[QUOTE]

Actually, it is not hard, at all, to dispute the fact that the Decalogue is part of U.S. history.

The fact that it appears as a teaching aid within a number of Christian denominations is not the same as saying that it played a part in the history of the nation. The Fugitive Slave Act played a significant role in this country’s history. Do you suggest that it be posted in every classroom?*

The claim that immigrants were “escaping religious persecution” has to be examined a bit more closely before we wave it about. Maryland was established as a Catholic sanctuary, but they only barely tolerated Protestants and actively persecuted Jews–until the Catholic patrons switched to Protestantism and the laws regarding Catholic and Protestants were reversed. Our most famous seekers of religious freedom wandered over to Plymouth Rock, not so much to escape active persecution, but because they were disgruntled that their sect had failed to become the high muck-a-mucks in the growing Puritan revolution in England. They joined a group who were coming over to create a new settlement, then hijacked the enterprise, using the Mayflower Compact to create a virtual theocracy.

I agree that we should teach about the religious underpinnings of American thought and action–including those who were motivated to oppose slavery because of religious beliefs and those who twisted their doctrines to support slavery, those whose religious background prompted them to fight for social justice, the end of sweatshops and child labor, etc., and those who quoted “The poor you shall always have with you.” to ignore the misery that this country allowed.

We should also note those who brought forth their ideas who were not inspired or motivated by religious conviction.

Posting the Decalogue does not address any of those issues. It is a feel-good solution for people who have no real ideas to bring to public education.

The worst thing we can do is to encourage any group to believe that their religion is appropriate in the schools. There are a number of families, today, who have been (and continue to be) persecuted for not conforming to one town or another’s idea of who is a “good” Christian. Handing the hate-mongers one more tool (Look, our commandments are posted on the wall.) is simply not a good idea.

*I would love to see the Fugitive Slave Act posted in schools, on a rotating basis with other legal travesties of justice, (E.O. 9066, the Three-Fifths Compromise, etc.), as a warning of how badly we are capable of behaving, but I suspect that the lesson would be lost on those who actually read it.


Tom~

tomndebb, that was a wonderful post. Thank you.

What I don’t understand is at a time where kids in schools are obviously feeling segregated from their peers (reflected in some of the school violence–many of the shooters etc. have mentioned feeling like they “didn’t belong.”) why in the world would people want to force yet another “thing” that magnifies these differences? If we want our kids to all get along and basically live together in harmony (not pick on each other, not discriminate, not harass) then why are so many people campaigning to give them another reason to segregate themselves? It doesn’t make any sense!


Those who are dancing look insane to those who cannot hear the music.


One-of-a-kind, custom-designed Wally sig available on request.

Obviously this is a proposition designed to fail, but allow its apparent proponents to look good by supporting religion/ family values or whatever.To discuss it on its merits is to miss the point. It is designed to make political capital; an action which can be safely undertaken due to the justiciable nature of rights under your Constitution (I am Australian). Politicians do this in the US because they know that the Supreme Court will usually allow them to make popular unconstitutional noises without constitutional consequences.

Whilst there may be intelligent people who are pushing this policy and sincere people who believe it is lawful, I doubt that that there any who are both intelligent and sincere.

picmr

Precisely what happened to Exon’s Communications Decency Act a few years back. No sane politician would vote against it, since such a vote might be perceived as, “I’m FOR child pornography!” The Supreme Court, however, has no problem shooting down such a blatant encroachment on free speech.

Some of them were, like Sam Adams and Patrick Henry. John Adams was a Unitarian. However, Ben Franklin, Thomas Paine, Ethan Allen, and Thomas Jefferson were all Deists. They believed in a god, but not the god of the Bible.


TMR
If you believed in yourself, and tore enough holes
in your pants, there was always a mist-filled alley
right around the corner.

Two things:

First, in my experience, it’s only a “violation” if somebody gets their panties in a bunch about it, goes to the media, files lawsuits, and generally makes a big stink. Even today there are small rural school districts where they have the 10 Commandments posted somewhere, but nobody cares, you know? The local people all have better things to do than drag a lawsuit through the court system.

Second, Christi, babe, you wasted an EXCELLENT topic on the Pit! Sweetie, what WERE you thinking? Next time, take a deep breath and post it over in GD, where it belongs! DavidB doesn’t bite–hard. :smiley:

Do they ever promote threads out of the Pit? I’d sure like to nominate this one.

“Why, sometimes I’ve believed as many as six impossible things before breakfast!” - the White Queen

Before I go off on the Ten Commandments, tommndebb said:

News to me- from what my history professor stated, it’s unknown exactly how the Jews were received in Maryland. Only one Jew’s presence was documented before the Protestants took back over in the early 1700’s, and that one Jew was only known because he was put on trial for- IIRC- fraud. It certainly seems possible to extrapolate this into persecution, and it may very well have been a trumped-up charge in order to drive a Jew out of the colony, but none of what I’ve learned shows any specific anti-Semitic actions by the early leaders of the Maryland colony. If you have different knowledge, I’d love to find out about it (no sarcasm, honestly; I’d just like to know the truth as best as possible).
Okay, on to the commandments.

On several levels, I vehemently oppose their posting in the classroom.

As a conservative Republican, the action to post the commandments seems to expand government and education’s role- now, not only will we teach our children, we’ll indoctrinate them in our morality. Peace is good, guns are evil, the environment is in dangerous straits and anyone who tells you differently is a greedy capitalist pig who wants to rape a tree, and never trust a white male, especially one who calls himself a Republican. Yes sir, sounds like a good plan to me, just another way for the government to show that it has to take the place of adults, since regular adults can’t be expected to act responsibly, but the government always can.

As a Catholic, posting the Commandments scares the daylights out of me, especially with all of the people stating, “Well, it is a Christian country.” Well, a lot of those people who talk about this being a “Christian” country aren’t really sure whether to consider Catholics as “Christians” or some “wacko fringe cult.” And as soon as they get to define America as a Christian country, they’ll be defining my religion outside of Christianity, and then I get to sit in the back of the bus with the Jews and the atheists et. al. And didn’t some one once say something about rendering unto Caesar that which is Caesar’s, and unto God that which is God’s? Seems like an early advocate for the seperation of Church and State to me…

And finally, I’m most appalled as someone who would like to find a solution to the problem of teen violence. Posting the Ten Commandments in schools won’t help. It’s a Band-Aid on a sucking chest wound. But once the bill gets passed, suddenly people will start thinking they’ve “done something”, and therefore won’t bother with a serious look at the problem. After all, we “did something” to stop the problem, so why focus upon it anymore? Our job here is done, after all. And then the next time a couple dozen kids get mowed down in a classroom, the hand-wringing starts and we start looking for new quick-fix legislation, and eventually- as with so many other issues- we’re so buried under little legislation, and so convinced that we’ve done everything we can to fix the problem, that we just give up and move on. And deep under those hundred Band-Aids, the sucking chest wound still festers.

Ewww. I apologize for the imagery in that last line.


JMCJ

“Y’know, I would invite y’all to go feltch a dead goat, but that would be abuse of a perfectly good dead goat and an insult to all those who engage in that practice for fun.” -weirddave, set to maximum flame

A nitpick, but this is not quite right. The law REQUIRED it as of 1955, but it did appear as early as 1864 on a two-cent coin. IIRC, all the Lincoln pennies have it (dating back to 1909), but not any pennies before that…

Of course this is being challenged in the courts as well, and will probably be removed eventually. A logical, literal interpretation of the Constitution would of course remove it. Of course it would also require the dismantling of most of the Federal government… The fact is, we don’t use a completely logical and literal interpretation; laws are skewed sometimes by the political and cultural environment of the time, because laws are for made for people–people are not made to blindly follow laws.

But back to the OP… The entire issue is more one of teaching ethics to our children. The Ten Commandments fiasco is simply a religious backlash in response to the recent school shootings. Do people really think that having them posted in classrooms will have a positive effect on student behavior? Do Bibles in hotel rooms prevent infidelity?

I believe in the Bible, but I think it’s just as bad cramming the Ten Commandments down students’ throats as it is teaching that Big Bang -> Abiogenesis -> Evolution is absolute fact.