The term 'Oriental' and racism in general

[blowero]

*Originally posted by g8rguy *
blowero, I don’t disagree with you, but I do want to point out a something:

I think you need to qualify this idea that we in the US having been using “Asian” for at least 30 years thing, since plainly there are plenty of Americans who have never heard that “Oriental” is offensive. I’ve long used “Asian” myself, but it was on these boards, and not that long ago, that I was first informed that to do otherwise was considered offensive by some people.

Maybe this is a regional thing? As a point of interest at least to me, last night I asked a friend of mine, of Chinese descent but born and bred in San Jose, whether she considered “Oriental” to be offensive, and she’d never heard that before. I think it’s far too simplistic to say that this is the way it’s been in America for 30 years and everyone should know that.

That’s interesting. I’m curious how old your friend is. I grew up in the Bay Area, and while I wouldn’t go so far as to say that ALL asian people consider the word “Oriental” to be offensive, I would certainly say that “Asian” is preferred. For example, here’s a webpage from Santa Clara University which lists many Asian organizations in the area. I couldn’t find a single instance of the word “Oriental” anywhere on that page. Maybe it’s there, but it’s certainly infrequent.
http://www.scu.edu/SCU/Programs/Diversity/scvasian.html

For example, all of these local organizations use the word Asian in their name:

Asian Television, Radio, and Newspapers in the Santa Clara Valley

Asian Americans for Community Involvement

Asian Business League of the Silicon Valley

Asian Law Alliance

Asian Pacific Family Resource Center

Asian American Recovery Services, Inc. (AARS)

Asian Art Museum of San Francisco

Here’s another San Jose Asian Organization:
http://www.bapd.org/gascnt-1.html

So while such things may be regional, I don’t think the Silicon Valley is one of those regions where the word “Oriental” is prevalent.

As such, those who like to jump over others for being rude and insensitive ought perhaps to count to 10, just to be sure that in their haste to correct the usage of others they aren’t being rude and insensitive themselves.

If you believe I have been rude and/or insensitive, please quote exactly what I have written that offended you, because I don’t believe I have been.

[blowero]

*Originally posted by China Guy *
If you’ll notice in this thread, it is really thin on any kind of support other than Asians in America think so.

Sorry, I don’t follow you.

[China_Guy]

blowero, I think every would agree that Asian by usage is far more common and has been for years. That is not to say that 20 years ago, if I used the word Oriental to describe a person, then all those in polite company would avert their eyes, clear their throats, shift uncomfortably in their chairs, and someone timidly say “Asian is the preferred word.” Didn’t happen.

How’s about you giving us reasoning and logic why Oriental is a derogatory and racist term when applied to a person in the United States. Some cites would be nice too. Again, I’m not looking for proof that there is/can be discrimination against Asians in America as it is given that there is. Here’s your chance to fight ignorance and educate us so the next time someone says “Oriental” we know why it’s a bad word. Thanks

[g8rguy]

Sorry, blowero, I didn’t mean to imply that you’ve been over the top. I thought I might need to clarify that after I posted, but didn’t bother. Still, I think it’s an important point to be made, because I have noticed people getting rather snitty about this in the past. But consider the following, from the thread which spawned this one:

“Oriental” refers to rug how about I start referring you as that fat white motherfucker from now on?

That’s an extreme example of the sort of thing I mean when I say that people should check to make sure they’re not being rude and insensitive in a criticism of the rudeness and insensitivity of others. It should, of course, be pretty obvious to anyone with a shred of intelligence that something like the above was inappropriate. But similarly, if were to read something like “every idiot knows that Oriental is a rug,” or “Oriental is a rug, you racist,” I would have to object.

And my friend is 25. Mind you, she describes herself as Asian, not Oriental. She just doesn’t take offense to the latter and had never heard that anyone might.

[Kimstu]

CG: How’s about you giving us reasoning and logic why Oriental is a derogatory and racist term when applied to a person in the United States. Some cites would be nice too.

Cites, anyone?

Lowlife Chi-Comm Garbage. Deny the yellow-dog chink scumfilth the 2004 Summer Games Olympics. […] Time to teach the slopes orientals dinks chinks a lesson, like the scum will even remember.

Many citizens of Vancouver, to whom Hindus, Chinks and Japs are non-persona grata, have been saying complimentary things about the proposal made by the Fraser River Lumber Company Limited, to substitute French-Canadians from Quebec for the many Hindoos now employed, these foreigners at present constituting about one-half of the force engaged at the firm’s mills, near Westminster, whilst many others of that ilk are to be found in the firm’s numerous logging camps.To the credit of the management be it said, the hiring of Hindoos has from the outset been regarded as an unpleasant necessity. […] No doubt other employers of Oriental labor on the Coast will watch the experiment being conducted by the Fraser River Mills people with a great deal of interest and if it proves satisfactory they will, no doubt, adopt the plan.

The Frenchman was not unversed in the ways of orientals, and he guessed also that if the white girl were still alive in the village she would be in no other hut than that of the most powerful chief; but he wished to verify his deductions if possible. He knew that a direct question as to the whereabouts of the girl would call forth either a clever oriental evasion or an equally clever oriental lie.

Straight from the horses ass, go to the library and read 89-93 issues of KLANWATCH to find out what lying oriental anti-racists are ADVOCATING and GETTING.

In this nineteenth-century nautical epic,spiced with ship mutinies, crafty Oriental opium smugglers, sea squalls , and alcoholic debauches

Young and old, drifting aimlessly upon the current of existence, sought for wise men who could give the answer they sought. They listened to esoteric language which neither he who spoke nor they who heard could understand. They hailed it as profound because it was veiled. Clever Oriental manipulators took advantage of the trend and moved into the West to siphon off the wealth from those whose faith had curdled into gullibility.

Is it really that hard to grasp why the term “Oriental” is associated in the minds of so many Asian-Americans with ignorance, prejudice, stereotyping, and downright hatred directed towards Asian people and cultures? Have you really never encountered any similarly negative uses of the word “Oriental” until now? That might explain why you don’t understand why so many people consider it “derogatory and racist”.

[Kimstu]

By the way, “Oriental” is not just a rug, but also a cat.

[China_Guy]

Kimtsu, you can probably find the same kind of racist stuff with the word Asian instead of Oriental. None of your sites would be in any way construed as “mainstream” media. For example, you can hear “gddmn As**n Drivers” these days. How about some studies comparing the usage of these two words and other clearly derogatory terms in mass media, or even on hate sites.

Stuff like Edgar Rice Bourroughs or a Joan Crawford movie release from the late 1920’s do not seem real applicable to me. You might as well throw out Kim by Kipling. YMMV.

Again, I hope that it doesn’t sound like I’m picking nits. I truely want to understand this issue. Thanks

[Avumede]

Show me where ‘Asians’ (you’re also assuming here that several billion people feel exactly the same way on one issue) find it offensive. The only people I’ve ever heard say it was offensive are - ding ding ding - white Americans.

I assume nothing of the kind. But if a significant number of Asians feel uncomfortable with people calling them “Orientals”, then that should signify that we all should be on the right side of this trend. Without resorting to a poll, the fact that we are having this discussion probably means that a significant number find it offensive. Otherwise we would never have heard of the issue.

The fact that you have only heard white Americans say it is offensive means nothing. Are you actually suggesting that whites are makng up sensitivities on the part of other cultures?

Same with African American. Most black people use the term black. It’s white people that you hear saying African American. The fact that the term is such a pain in the ass to say out loud (Af-ri-can A-mer-i-can as opposed to Black) and is almost exclusively used by white people makes it sound patronizing to me. You think it will be offensive 20 years from now?

By that logic, I can call blacks the N-word? Since they use that term themselves?

I think the term “black” is still in popular usage, and I would guess that it is somewhat less offensve that “oriental” is to Asians. However, I accept any corrections, which it seems like many posters on this board find it difficult to do.

[blowero]

*Originally posted by g8rguy *
And my friend is 25. Mind you, she describes herself as Asian, not Oriental. She just doesn’t take offense to the latter and had never heard that anyone might.

Well, that blows my theory. I thought she might be from a generation where Oriental was the norm. But here’s the thing; she still self-identifies as “Asian”, as do most Asians. And while many Asians may not be offended per se, they certainly don’t prefer “Oriental” over “Asian”. So if most Asians prefer “Asian”, and many Asians are offended by “Oriental”, and almost none prefer "Oriental, why on Earth would anyone continue to insist on using “Oriental” after being made aware of this? Just to be obstinate?

[Kimstu]

CG: *Stuff like Edgar Rice Bourroughs or a Joan Crawford movie release from the late 1920’s do not seem real applicable to me. You might as well throw out Kim by Kipling. YMMV.

Again, I hope that it doesn’t sound like I’m picking nits. I truely want to understand this issue. Thanks*

I think that one of the reasons you may be having trouble understanding it is that you’re assuming for some reason that only current “mainstream media” usages are “applicable”. Why? It’s the usages of the past that bestowed on any ethnic descriptor the terms that it has in the present. Why should we think that even if nobody today used the term “Oriental” in a prejudiced or disparaging way (and, of course, plenty of people still do), the accumulated baggage from the past shouldn’t count and Asian-Americans shouldn’t object to the term? All those unpleasant connotations of the past are still pretty objectionable. If you or your self-described “Oriental” friends and family aren’t bothered by that baggage from the past, fine, but if other people are bothered by it, I think common politeness requires you not to use the term around them.

The fact that “Asian” can also be used in a derogatory way doesn’t make the use of “Oriental” any better; it just means (if the practice continues) that in a decade or so the word “Asian” will also be considered offensive and will need to be replaced with something else. See, the reason acceptable ethnic descriptors need to be changed so often is that they get dirty so fast, thanks to the ongoing efforts of the racists and jerks and ignoramuses who use them unacceptably.

There’s nothing intrinsically wrong with the word “Oriental”, or for that matter with “nigger” or “darky” or “colored” or “Negro”. They’re all kind of vague and inadequate, like all ethnic descriptors, but they weren’t made up specifically to be insulting, as words like “wog” or “coon” or “jungle bunny” or “wetback” were. The only reason we can’t go on using the former kind indefinitely is that continued racism in the societies that use them goes on loading them up with offensive connotations, until finally the basic term itself sounds offensive and the groups in question want a less loaded word to call themselves by.

And then everybody else complains that they’re just being PC and oversensitive and never satisfied and whiny. :rolleyes: Look, everybody, if you don’t like ethnic descriptors being thrown out as “offensive”, then stop using them offensively. As long as endemic racism against ethnic minorities keeps on being a significant social problem, it’s going to cause the minorities eventually to reject the names that are used as the vehicles of that racism.

So maybe if we complain enough about nasty remarks like “goddamn Asian drivers”, we’ll succeed in keeping the term “Asian” clean enough to be used for a long while. Heck, people who still think that “Oriental” is clean can go on using it too—just not around people who think it’s dirty.

Yeah, it can be a hassle figuring out what’s what, and sometimes people are ruder than they need to be when you accidentally get it wrong. Suck it up; it still beats the bad old days when nobody even thought to care how the “coloreds” or the “orientals” felt about those names.

[blowero]

*Originally posted by China Guy *
blowero, I think every would agree that Asian by usage is far more common and has been for years.

That should be enough reason in itself to say “Asian”. It’s more common because it is preferred. It’s not just random.

That is not to say that 20 years ago, if I used the word Oriental to describe a person, then all those in polite company would avert their eyes, clear their throats, shift uncomfortably in their chairs, and someone timidly say “Asian is the preferred word.” Didn’t happen.

I disagree. At least in California, in the 80’s, you would get a funny look if you said Oriental. That’s not to say that it instantly changed. It was a gradual process; but I think it was pretty well ensconced by the 80’s. By then, for example, most schools had changed the names of student organizations from “Oriental Student Union” to “Asain Student Union”.

How’s about you giving us reasoning and logic why Oriental is a derogatory and racist term when applied to a person in the United States. Some cites would be nice too. Again, I’m not looking for proof that there is/can be discrimination against Asians in America as it is given that there is. Here’s your chance to fight ignorance and educate us so the next time someone says “Oriental” we know why it’s a bad word. Thanks

Please scroll up the page a bit; I already covered this.

[Feistymongol]

*Originally posted by China Guy *
**
I would really like to have fiestymongol, archmichael or any one of numerous Asian dopers share their thoughts. I am especially interested in what might have been covered in an Asian Studies class. Certainly, I would like my Asian daughter to be able to articulate more than “oriental is a rug” if she ever has to confront this issue a few years down the road. **

Like everyone else has already mentioned the term Oriental is derogatory because it refers to the person as an object. Thus the reply that “oriental is a rug.” It’s patronizing in the same way you would refer to someone possessively as your “oriental” or “negro.” It denigrates that person as less than a human being and it has its roots in colonialist thought where an ethnic person was considered conquered subservient “chattle” by the empire. White colonialists used to refer to ethnic individuals by their “race” in an objectified fashion. It may not be offensive in all countries, like in the UK where they use it but it doesn’t have the same implications. Asian is used for “indians and pakistanis” so in Britain they default on the term “oriental.” I don’t think the word has quite the same connotations there that it does in the U.S.

[g8rguy]

*Originally posted by blowero *
**Well, that blows my theory. I thought she might be from a generation where Oriental was the norm. But here’s the thing; she still self-identifies as “Asian”, as do most Asians. And while many Asians may not be offended per se, they certainly don’t prefer “Oriental” over “Asian”. So if most Asians prefer “Asian”, and many Asians are offended by “Oriental”, and almost none prefer "Oriental, why on Earth would anyone continue to insist on using “Oriental” after being made aware of this? Just to be obstinate? **

shrug As mentioned, I agree with most of what you have to say. The fact that she prefers “Asian” is sufficient cause for me to use it. Likewise, if she preferred “Oriental,” I would use that term instead. This just seems to be common courtesy to me.

I don’t object to the thought of people using “Asian” instead of “Oriental,” but I do object to the notion that people who do use “Oriental” are guilty of either shocking rudeness or shocking ignorance, or that said people deserve to be treated with rudeness or condescension in turn.

[China_Guy]

Fair points, but as I said way back on the first page, the only rationale I’ve found that makes sense to me about the why is that Oriental inherently has the negative colonial baggage. The whole “east of somewhere” also ties into that. Now, maybe you don’t care about the why but I do. I hope I’m being clear that I am not arguing for using Oriental, it’s just I’d like to see, I dunno, more. I’ve been looking on and off for about 2 years now, so I’m not holding my breath that it’s going to show up in this thread.

Read Kim by Kipling, other than a few “oriental mind” type comments I can’t see anything that is other than a product of it’s time (along the lines of Mark Twain and “N” Jim). Now the use of Asiatic certainly has a lot more obvious negative/derogatory baggage associated with it. Harvard’s Asiatic Review is possibly the last vestige of public use, and they seem to get away from it because they are Harvard and it is a scholarly work.

blowero, we’re gonna have to disagree on when Oriental became a bad word. My experience in Northern California was different from yours, and I was heavily involved in things Asian from high school onward. I think someone would have pointed it out to me given the circles I moved in, but I sure don’t remember that happening. I left University and the US in 1985, so that’s a clear watermark in my mind.

[blowero]

*Originally posted by g8rguy *
I don’t object to the thought of people using “Asian” instead of “Oriental,” but I do object to the notion that people who do use “Oriental” are guilty of either shocking rudeness or shocking ignorance, or that said people deserve to be treated with rudeness or condescension in turn.

I certainly never accused anyone of “shocking rudeness”. I did say I was “amazed” that some people didn’t know about the “Asian” thing. Perhaps I overstated it, but I don’t think that’s the same as calling it “shocking ignorance”. And I don’t believe I have been rude to anyone in particular.

China Guy:
blowero, we’re gonna have to disagree on when Oriental became a bad word. My experience in Northern California was different from yours, and I was heavily involved in things Asian from high school onward. I think someone would have pointed it out to me given the circles I moved in, but I sure don’t remember that happening. I left University and the US in 1985, so that’s a clear watermark in my mind.

Doesn’t matter anyway. What’s the difference if it was 20 years ago or 30 years ago?

[China_Guy]

well, it kinda matters to me. See, I was there in 1985 and Oriental wasn’t considered a bad word by the Asians I knew. Then about two years ago I got sideswiped by the issue. Dunno, like to think that I am up on things Chinese and Asian in general. I’ve got some personal stake in this issue as well.

Also it is painfully obvious that Americans who have taken up this cause have no frickin’ clue how Oriental and Asian are viewed outside of the US. Nor how confusing this might when trying to explain it to someone Asian in Asia. Imagine someone that’s never been to the US, learning English as a second language (or even first language), and trying to understand the difference between these two words. “Oriental is a rug” doesn’t cut it in this case.

I figured that something as big as Oriental to Asian in the US would have some sort of smoking pistol or watershed or something. People woke up one day and said, dang I never looked at it that way before, it’s clearly racist.

Heck, maybe I’m not being clear about what I’m looking for. Or articulating clearly that I’m trying to understand the why. Most of you don’t care, but I do. You know what, I still don’t think I’ve got a good why. Certainly, no one in this thread has provided much food for thought. That said, maybe I’m in the wrong forum.

I think that Asian-American college kids decided they needed a banner. Please note, I am not saying that there is not prejudice nor racism against Asians in the US. I’m saying that a pan-Asian movement was attempted to be started. An easy target was to change from the oppressed “Oriental” (Fiestymongol equates it with chattel) to Asian-American or Asian. Then the catchphrase of “Oriental is a rug” caught on. Thus far in this thread, no one has really explained what that means. If you look at dictionaries, Oriental is used as a noun to refer to someone from the Orient. I’m sure some people tried to explain it as “Oriental is like the ‘n’ word.” I could be wrong on the above, but that’s what I’ve pieced together as I try to understand the “why” of it.

Also, while I now buy off on the “Oriental” is a colonially biased word. I used to think and I’m sure a lot of people think that “Oriental” is like “Asian”, Jesus H Christ, if I wanted a derogatory word I would use any one of a number of readily available slurs. Go back in time, and the British used “wog” instead of Oriental when they wanted to be derogatory. So, perhaps, that’s why a lot of people don’t understand what is wrong with “Oriental.” I may be guilty of that since as the son of a WW2 Pacific Theater and Korean war decorated combat vet, “Oriental” was not a word used in a derogatory fashion. Words other than Oriental were used so that there was no mistaking intent. Otherwise, it was Oriental, Asian or country of origin as a general descriptor.

Apologies for the ramble.

[mikan]

China Guy: please see my post on page 2 the Playmates thread. (I’d link over or c&p myself, but I’m having trouble with the server now for some reason…)

[g8rguy]

Let me try this one more time… blowero, I’m not saying you’ve been rude to anyone, nor am I saying you’ve called those people who use the term “Oriental” either shockingly rude or shockingly ignorant. I’m just saying that there are those who have done so, or have at least come across to me in such a way as to make it seem that they would do so were they not better mannered. Fair enough?

[Kimstu]

CG: Heck, maybe I’m not being clear about what I’m looking for. Or articulating clearly that I’m trying to understand the why. Most of you don’t care, but I do. You know what, I still don’t think I’ve got a good why.

I recommend Robert G. Lee’s Orientals: Asian Americans in Popular Culture for starters. Frank Wu’s Yellow: Race in America Beyond Black and White is also interesting.

I don’t think, however, that you will be helped by going into the question with the attitude that what’s really going on is “Asian-American college kids decided they needed a banner.” IMHO, this is a real issue that many people of all ages sincerely feel is important, and if you’re dismissing it out of hand as adolescent posturing, you’re not going to get very far with your stated goal of understanding it.

Then the catchphrase of “Oriental is a rug” caught on. Thus far in this thread, no one has really explained what that means. If you look at dictionaries, Oriental is used as a noun to refer to someone from the Orient.

Well, if you look at dictionaries, “Jap” is defined as a noun to designate someone from Japan. Just because a term is listed in a dictionary doesn’t mean it’s safe to use it, and in fact, plenty of people here have pointed out dictionary caveats about the use of “Oriental”.

The meaning of the comeback “‘Oriental’ is a rug” seems as though it ought to be fairly obvious to anyone familiar with this issue: i.e., it’s saying that the word “Oriental” is not appropriately applied to people. I agree that it wouldn’t make much sense to anybody who had no idea that “Oriental” could be considered offensive, but surely you’re clued in to that by now?

I don’t understand what you find so hard to understand about the “why” of this issue. As I said, racial designators—even ones that are not intentionally derogatory, like “Oriental” or “Negro”—frequently just acquire so much derogatory cultural baggage, and get so closely associated with derogatory ideas, that they come to seem derogatory in and of themselves, and then a new term is needed. (Yes, switching terms is a nuisance, but I tend to think the blame should rest more with the racists who use even neutral ethnic terms in offensive ways than with the “Orientals” or “Negroes” themselves.) Seems pretty straightforward to me.

I think it’s interesting, by the way, that you believe that the term “Asiatic” “certainly has a lot more obvious negative/derogatory baggage associated with it” than “Oriental”. Personally, I seldom associate “Asiatic” with negative or derogatory meanings, though I know they exist; the usages I’m most familiar with are fairly neutral historical ones like the Asiatic Review and the Royal Asiatic Society. Just goes to show how strongly one’s own personal experience affects one’s views of what is “certainly” or “obviously” an offensive term.

[CarnalK]

So is the feeling of the anti-Oriental-nomenclature camp that Asians outside of America should follow this judgment? Or should this only be an issue when addressing Asian-Americans?