Lindsey Graham really needs to be concerned with proven things going on right now in our government instead of conspiracy theories that (actually didn’t) supposedly happened years ago. Let’s spend taxpayer money chasing illusory claims that the President was justified in being corrupt!
I actually am feeling the same way tonight. Trying to remind myself that I’m pessimistic by nature, and somewhat paranoid to boot, so maybe the night is not as irrevocably and hopelessly dark as it’s seeming right now. But if this is the best Congress can do, and it’s not swaying people to want what’s right, then… I’m just tired. I’m glad there are people still ready to fight.
It would mean we are no longer a democracy.
So Joe Biden’s not going to save us after all? 
I have to agree with much of the sentiment. Trump is as obvious a criminal as I have ever seen. Since it is clear nothing is going to come of this, it will greatly embolden him. Why wouldn’t it? And this pushes the USA further along the road to authoritarianism and fascism. The problem is Republican supporters who absolutely cannot separate Republican policies (let’s assume they’re better than Democrat policies) and Trump as president. There’s obviously a debate that can be had on a wide variety of policies, but the price of policy should never to have a criminal executive. Republican voters are sending a very clear message to the party. We don’t care. You can do anything you want so long as you tell us you’re pro-gun, anti-abortion, etc.
I think the USA is fraked.
I don’t know if this whole edifice is worth keeping. Why fight to save a Constitution that, in 20 years, is going to give 16% of the population 84% of the Senators, that is currently giving an entrenched minority power from beyond the grave, which effectively says “if the President can get 25 Senators to agree, he can usurp this document and its provisions”?
Our constitution has a few great things in it and a few serious problems. The most serious of which are the ridiculous election systems it has evolved. How it isn’t apparent to Republicans jeering and taunting at their electoral victories with a minority of the vote that they are creating a majority of the country that hates them for this is beyond my comprehension.
If Dems regain complete control of Congress and the White House, the first priority must be to reform the systems of representation. Don Beyer’s Fair Representation Act would be a great start.
If Senate acquittal is a foregone conclusion, then might as well spend the court time to get all of these guys to testify.
I agree. So it takes 3 months to run through the courts. If Bolton were to testify and ream Donald a new asshole, the wait is worth it. If that turns the tide and Republicans are halfway through a half-canceled primary season with no nominee, sucks to be them.
Let me play Devil’s Advocate for a moment. Tell me where I’m wrong.
Asking for a favor before releasing foreign aid funds may be wrong, but it could just be viewed as smart bargaining — provided the favor asked is a favor for the United States. In other words, asking for a quid pro quo is OK, as long as it’s not a quid pro quo for Trump personally.
Now you know and I know that Trump was asking for a personal favor, but is this obvious to all? The U.S. wanted Ukraine to fight corruption, and that’s what Trump asked for. Mentioning the Bidens specifically is what made it cross the line for many of us, but even that is moot. Trump might have zeroed in on the Bidens as a mnemonic for corruption in general.
I am not making that argument. I’m just saying it’s an argument a defense attorney might be able to sell to a gullible jury.
With all the other blatant crimes Trump has committed, I’m not happy that the emphasis is on this one ambiguous and contestable crime.
Trump definitely has huge hatreds for those he regards as enemies, probably feels he’s approaching his own end-game in terms of lifespan, and has about zero love for the United States. There is huge devastation he could wreak out of spite. IMO we should be very worried.
Of course. Quid pro quo (and how many times do we think we’ve heard this phrase in the past 2 months?) happen all the time in foreign relations, and they’re generally fine – it just depends on who is benefitted by the quid, and who is benefitted by the quo.
The only people who don’t see this are the ones who are entirely vested in Trump’s innocence.
Take the Cuban Missile Crisis of 1962. Kennedy and Khruschev negotiated a QPQ: Khruschev removes the missiles from Cuba, and the US promises not to invade again, to lift the blockade, and to remove some missiles from Turkey. No one has a problem with that - the terms of the agreement are in alignment with US foreign policy.
Now, if Kennedy had lifted the blockade in exchange for Russian intelligence on Barry Goldwater … then we’d have a problem.
It should be if you (not you you, the general you) look at the surrounding evidence. If Trump wanted to fight corruption in (the) Ukraine then there’s plenty of legitimate channels to do so. But he didn’t use any of those legitimate channels. He used his personal attorney to pursue conspiracy theories. He supported (the) Ukraine keeping a corrupt prosecutor because he was willing to help him smear the Bidens. And so and so forth. Yes, if somebody looks only at this one little small tiny piece, it seems like maaaaaaaaaybe it is legit. But not when you look at the whole thing.
The President of the United States is now above the law (if Republican). This is a very dangerous time for the USA, and I know some people will read that and think it is just fearmongering alarmism. It could never happen in the USA. I’m certainly not saying the USA will 100% become authoritarian/fascist, just that this is a dangerous time, and it absolutely can happen in the USA. Allowing a political party to flirt so much with authoritarianism without a whisper of rebuke from their own supporters is very dangerous.
All these fucking chicken littles.
Look, the only reason that we know any of this is because Democrats won House midterms by the largest margin since the Watergate scandal (USA Today). Remember when Nunes was in charge of the House Intelligence Committee and he quashed everything?
Democrats, supposedly torn apart from infighting, supposedly who never turn out in midterm elections, showed that when Trump is in the White House that they would roll up their sleeves and get things done. (It didn’t hurt that some states finally were held accountable for gerrymandering either, but that just leveled a few playing fields; as a whole Democrats completely annihilated the GOP).
Just last month what happened in Virginia and Kentucky? The voters made local elections national and as a referendum on Trump, a purple and very red state voiced their displeasure with him.
The Democratic voting base was enraged at Trump before, leading to unprecedented gains in the last two election cycles. You think they’ll meekly slink away if Trump, despite the overwhelming evidence, is acquitted by the Senate on a party-line vote?
No. What’s going to happen is the outrage that has already manifested itself will intensify. Democrats for dog catcher will be campaigning on an anti-Trump platform. “This is the face of corruption,” the ads will show every Republican Senator who greenlit Trump’s actions.
Democrats have been furious for some time and they have collectively put aside their differences to band together against the real enemy. After Republican Senators enable this obvious corruption, voters will be even more angry. And wait until Trump’s financial records finally get plied loose by the courts, which will happen, and will expose him to even more charges (legal or the court of public opinion or both).
Republicans have underestimated how pissed off Democrats are at Trump and it has lost them elections. They may not underestimate it this time, but Democrats will be even more pissed off in 2020. He won in 2016 due to tiny slivers of margins in a couple of states. Pennsylvania is one of them. Here’s an article from just two weeks ago in Politico:
Did I mention that this was in an off-off-year when Democrats supposedly don’t even know elections are taking place?
I understand being bummed that every Republican Senator is a traitor who puts party above country. It’s definitely not a god look. But stop losing sight of the fact that the impeachment vote is not the end. If he is not impeached there will be even more anger from the left and that anger will manifest itself into people crawling over each other to vote against those fuckers in every race on their tickets.
When you’re taking cues from notorious chicken little asahi, it’s time to reassess.
Is there any testimony that supports “Trump asked Ukraine to fight corruption”? I haven’t seen it, but I haven’t read all the testimony.
We’ll see. I have very little confidence that democracy will survive in a functional form in the USA in the near future (say 30 years out). Either the Democrats will be effectively barred from winning procedurally (very likely, a good outcome since it allows for a veneer of “democracy”), outright banned (possible, there would be widespread support for it from Republicans), or the Democrats decide to go the authoritarian route themselves. Of course, making a 30 year prediction is non-trivial, a lot could happen in that time. But the trend at the moment from the Republican party is more authoritarianism, and their supporters are near fully behind them. They cannot do anything wrong. The Republican party is very nearly above the law, not quite, but very close.
Thanks for that bit of hope. Makes sense. All cannot be lost yet…
As I’ve said, the Democrats have been debating for months and they aren’t mentioning that the FEC needs to have an appointment before it will be able to police the next election - which strongly encourages Trump to cheat through the whole thing - any they haven’t been discussing the basic sane functioning of government.
Healthcare may be wonderful and all but if you can’t accomplish anything sane, period, because nothing can be done and you can’t even get the job because the other side has realised that they can get away with anything, politically, due to the genuine lack of interest among the people, then arguing about different types of healthcare is stupid.
If you love a candidate, write to them and ask them to get real. They’re currently performing the lemming nose dive.
As I expected, Dopers misread my post. I’ll try again in a larger font:
ETA: Dopers are not gullible enough to fall for the sham defense. But that’s irrelevant: The relevant audience is a low-IQ Archie Bunker in the Rust Belt.
And who won the Senate by inventing a conspiracy theory about invading Hondurans?
The next election isn’t going to be pretty. The last one resulted in a shooting at a synagogue and Trump didn’t seem phased by that fact. All he noted was that the strategy worked. He kept the Senate and he kept his immunity.
Next election, he’s going to crank up the calls of doom to zombie apocalypse level, and that’s going to have an even stronger impact. More deaths. And maybe more Senate seats and maybe the Presidency.
The guy has to win. He goes to jail if he doesn’t. He has to win and win at all costs.
Your morning nitpick: fazed. You’re welcome.