Which means Mitch wont let the vote be secret.
Factual question, can the Senate vote to convict a sitting President without making public the individual votes?
~Max
Is a secret ballot even allowed for an impeachment/conviction vote?
Fair point. And given today’s news, i.e., that our insanely gerrymandered House districts are being challenged under the same legal theory that gave us the recent redrawing of our state legislative districts, and that one of the idiots who drew those districts explicitly bragged about how gerrymandered they were, Meadows may not be my representative in 2021 anyway. He’s got some lights in his rearview mirror :).
I dont think so, but if there was a shadow of a chance, with Mitch running it, no.
I think you are confusing the legal authority to issue orders with the completely separate question of whether any given order is lawful.
The president, by law, is allowed to issue orders to the military. That doesn’t mean that “line the citizens of Berkely, CA up against the wall and shoot them all” is a lawful order. If someone legally allowed to issue orders gives an order that’s the first step in making a decision to carry it out or not. Whether that order is itself something that can be lawfully ordered. That determination rests on things like other domestic law and the international law of war (both customary and the specifically enacted into US law by ratifying treaties portions.)
The random nuke someone because I am loosing it order imagined likely runs into very real issues with two underlying principles used in assessing lawfulness - military necessity and proportionality. (wiki cite for short definitions)
There wasn’t a lot of time during the Cold War, facing a possible Soviet first strike, to dig too deep on the legality of any given order. Necessity drove making a lot of those decisions during pre-planning and just executing rapid drills. “Nuke Ukraine because I am tired of hearing the name” is going to have a bigger lag. There’s not a preplanned drill to nuke Ukraine or an extremely time sensitive threat. There’s plenty of time to slow down and have kinds of discussions that are required when you believe you are receiving an unlawful order. It’s not like we are facing an imminent Ukranian nuclear strike if we don’t act immediately.
The president is legally empowered to order the release nuclear weapons. Not every hypothetical order to do so would be lawful. There’s a reason why the phrase is lawful orders vs simply orders.
Nah, Mike Murphy is a good guy, and I guarantee you there is no one on the planet who wants Trump out of office worse than he does. He hosted an awesome and hilarious podcast called Radio Free GOP, dedicated to opposing the “Orange Menace”, that featured great production values and old timey jingles. Now he cohosts Hacks on Tap with David Axelrod. Guy’s legit.
Sadly, my rep that I contacted last weekend is one of them. But Trump won his district by like 30 points so I guess it’s a bit understandable. (My city of Moorhead is the largest in the district and went strongly for Hillary, but there is a huge swath of rural area that overrides us: the total land area of the congressional district is greater than that of Massachusetts, Rhode Island, New Hampshire, and Vermont combined, and it is the second most Republican-leaning district in the country to be represented by a Democrat, so I guess we should just be glad for that.)
Nah, Mike Murphy is a good guy, and I guarantee you there is no one on the planet who wants Trump out of office worse than he does. He hosted an awesome and hilarious podcast called Radio Free GOP, dedicated to opposing the “Orange Menace”, that featured great production values and old timey jingles. Now he cohosts Hacks on Tap with David Axelrod. Guy’s legit.
If the guy is legit twice over, I guess there’s hope.
But you have to notice the very important caveat. They don’t get to vote in secret. And these guys aren’t exactly profiles in courage. But I guess the good part is that they aren’t going to really help carry water for Trump. They will just avoid dealing with any of it as much as possible and hope he resigns or dies or something.
Who could trust it if it was? The vote must be public.
I mean I’m sorry, but in plain terms, fuck those guys. If you don’t have the chops or courage to do the entire job, even when it’s hard, then don’t run for Senate.
Moreover, the concerns Republican Senators have over their personal safety is an issue much of their own making. Their relentless and foolish support of unlimited gun rights under any circumstance is largely what has brought us to the point where some citizens consider lawless anarchy an acceptable remedy to their grievances, along with remaining silent while their “president” exhorts them to violent action.
I don’t think there is any way around a public vote, and I don’t support it being secret even if there were. Sunlight is the best disinfectant.
Hypothetical: suppose Republicans figure that yes, there is serious criminal behavior that can’t be tolerated. A delegation of Republican House and Senate leaders goes to the White House and says “We think you need to go and if we have to, we’re prepared to vote you out.” Would he resign before being impeached and convicted? If I had to bet, I’d say no, he’d take the party down with him and force them to have a vote. But maybe he’d take the Nixonian exit.
I’m not so sure. Isn’t Mitch’s #1 job to keep a GOP majority in the Senate? A removal vote is going to be a tricky tightrope for any GOP Senator outside a deep rep state to walk. Either you vote to kick him out and get primaried by a MAGA-head who will struggle in the general, or you vote to keep him and have a tougher fight in the general.
I also agree they would be happy if Trump resigned. But - anyone who’s seen Trump in the last few years knows he’d never admit to doing anything wrong, will never admit anything he did was bad judgment on his part and he’d never apologize for anything.
He can’t resign, his ego won’t let him.
Maybe they should get Palin in there to convince him that resigning early is a win in some way.
He’d label all the R’s in the meeting traitors and tweet his supporters to apply 2nd amendment solutions to remove them.
Even with Pence promising blanket pardons for everyone, Oprah-style, there’d still be a New York State process server standing right outside the office. Nixon could only be coaxed into resigning because he knew that would be the end of it all. Trump knows his only way to avoid prison is to *stay *in the White House. So, yeah, it’ll have to be the hard way.
Either one of those voting strategies is an abrogation of the senator’s duty, which is to decide based on the evidence presented whether a conviction is warranted. Voting based on what you imagine the political consequences of your vote is failing to live up to your oath of office.
Of course I expect they’ll all vote based on the political consequences.
When my brother first moved to his apartment, he had a crazy downstairs neighbor. The sort of person who would photograph you walking up the stairs to your own room and then call the police because you were “stalking” her by passing her door on the stairwell. Real lovely woman. Anyway, after my brother moved in, the other tenants were finally able to persuade the landlord to send her an eviction notice. And then… nothing was happening. It turns out that you have to open the eviction notice and read it for it to legally take effect, so the woman was deliberately ignoring it.
Eventually, she reached the point of We Can Legally Assume That’s You’ve Seen It By Now and was tossed out on her ear. There was much rejoicing.
Don’t know why this story comes to mind. I’m sure I’ll think of the reason eventually.
Maybe *Michael *Palin could pull off that bit of comedy.