This begs the question: where are they going to go?
In my opinion, almost the whole call is about foreign policy. It may not be good or even appropriate policy, but it’s still there. Here’s my read of the memorandum if you are interested:
[SPOILER]Mr. Zelensky said he was ready to buy missiles.
Mr. Trump asked Mr. Zelensky to speak with the U.S. Attorney General about investigating a server.
Mr. Zelensky said he is ready to cooperate in the future. He will appoint a new ambassador, one of his assistants recently met with Mr. Giuliani (apparently Ukraine’s Trump point of contact since the ambassador was fired), he will surround himself with great people and guarantees that all investigations will be done openly and candidly.
Mr. Trump responded by praising Mr. Giuliani and disparaging the former ambassador to Ukraine, and also asks Mr. Zelensky to do something with the U.S. Attorney General regarding prosecution of Mr. Biden’s son.
Mr. Zelensky says a new Ukraine prosecutor general will look into the situation and asks the U.S. to provide any additional information that might help with that investigation.
Mr. Trump says Mr. Giuliani and Mr. Barr will call and work things out. Good luck with everything, Ukraine is a great country, Mr. Trump has many Ukrainian friends.
Mr. Zelensky says he has many American friends and has stayed in Trump Tower. He thanks Mr. Trump for the invitation to go to D.C. and the rest is pretty much an extended good-bye.[/SPOILER]
It seems that Mr. Trump’s policy in Ukraine is to condition military aid on law enforcement cooperation (investigation of a server and Mr. Biden’s son). If Ukraine helps out with these investigations, we’ll let you buy missiles.
Obviously both of those investigations are entirely inappropriate for the president to require, but that is my opinion, not the president’s.
~Max
I’m stating my ideas and opinions, not trying to manipulate anyone.
Why can’t it be that Trump simply wants to curry favor with Putin and others, which explains why he does what he does, and not that he is a wholly owned agent of the Russian Federation? But if he is controlled by them in some way, how exactly do their demands make their way to Trump? Anyway, I don’t know what more to say on this matter, unless someone wants to discuss a specific piece or pieces of evidence. If so, I suggest another thread.
Yep. It’s the very definition of Occam’s Razor.
Ambassadors do that when the President tells them to. I lump treaty negotiation in under the unitary executive theory. It’s the President himself under Article II Section 2 who has the power, by and with the advice and consent of the Senate, to make treaties, provided two thirds of the Senators present concur.
~Max
Not on the GOP as a whole, but on the Judases in the leadership who will appear to them to have betrayed him. The Deplorables *own *the party now. They *are *the party. There are, however, still RINO’s and fifth columnists in it who must be purged, and will be, if they act disloyally.
Some of them will stay home on Election Day nursing their poutrage. Some of them will vote for fringe third parties.
Yes, some of them will hold their noses and vote Republican anyway, but Moscow Mitch and company are (not unreasonably) afraid that not enough will to keep them in power.
In cold war lingo, a “useful idiot” is still considered a foreign asset. They don’t take direct orders, but their incompetence and sympathy nevertheless is as helpful or more helpful than a literal spy.
When people say President Trump is a Russian asset, they do not always mean he literally takes orders and commissions from the Kremlin. There are some who think he has been blackmailed and simply acts to please Russia without taking direct orders, lest Russia unleash the embarrassing video. There are some who think he is just a “useful idiot”.
I don’t think anybody has evidence of Mr. Trump taking direct orders from the Kremlin, a la “call Mr. Zelensky today and push the Biden investigation. Don’t mention the military aid.”
~Max
Well, they’re at least half right.
“Saw how we handled that asshole who stepped over the line with you? We held him accountable and there is transparency that allows this. So you can speak with the new guy/gal all you want and not worry anymore.”
The argument that you imply is assuming the conclusion.
Waiting to release communications until after articles of impeachment are filed avoids the situation where communications are released and then articles of impeachment are not filed.
~Max
It also has the benefit of allowing the administration and the GOP to control the narrative if evidence is withheld from the public until the impeachment process is handed over to the Senate. Just coincidence I’m sure, right?
No, because the Democrats control the House it would be the Democrats who decide when to release the evidence for public consumption. I am thinking the process should go like this:
[ol][li]A whistleblower or some other credible source alleges the President has abused his authority[/li][li]The House or a committee therein investigates, and possibly makes the complaint public[/li][li]The House or committee requests private access to records of top-level diplomatic encounters[/li][li]The House or committee drafts articles of impeachment[/li][li]The House or committee formally places the articles of impeachment on the table, releases evidence to the public, and schedules a vote before the full House[/li][li]Individual representatives talk to their constituents[/li][li]The House votes on whether to impeach the president[/li][li]If applicable, the House sends articles of impeachment to the Senate for trial[/ol][/li]~Max
I could just as easily say this about Trump acting of his own volition.
Again, the only people releasing communications with foreign leaders are team Trump.
You seem overly concerned with how congress will handle these while ignoring the true perpetrators here.
People here have said he is owned, but have not specified how, or precisely what that means. They have not specified how he was blackmailed. In fact, they haven’t *specified *anything.
That being said, certainly useful idiots exist. We can agree on that.
Maybe we’re going about this the wrong way. Since we know that trump only cares about money, maybe we should just take of a collection and pay him to leave.
Well, you can have your opinion, but the facts so far indicate that a memo classified as Secret/NOFORN was moved to a SAP-level server in order to avoid further distribution indicates strongly that senior White House official(s) saw it as embarrassing, at the least, or perhaps even a violation of law, thereby violating the Executive Order prohibiting overclassification of materials not rested to foreign policy or national security considerations.
Clearly the majority of the call was an effort to gain cooperation on a campaign-related activity. That is not foreign policy. Just because it involves another country, does not make it any less a political rather than policy topic.
Further, the claim that it was a policy discussion falls apart when Trump asks multiple times for Zelensky to be in contact with Barr, and Barr doesn’t find out about the call for what, like a month later? For as many people who were on the call, nobody thought to tell Barr that his name came up? That indicates that nobody of perhaps a dozen or more people who had access to the call thought it was about a legitimate law enforcement investigation.
So sure, you may think it is a policy call. God bless your heart. But when dozens of national security personnel at the highest levels of the government act like the call isn’t about policy, at the same time the call was happening and unknown to the public, you are peddling very weak sauce.
Frankly I think you should consider the abuses inherent in a government that can unilaterally determine that any interest of theirs is a matter of national policy, and re-evaluate what you are saying here. Think about Nixon, and his use of intelligence agencies to harass politics opponents. This is an almost perfect analogy for what Trump was doing. There is great danger in buying into a national security state - and I’m saying this as someone who works in that field.
FOIA is needed to keep people in government honest about what they do, and when it is illegitimate, knowing that they can’t bury their misdeeds. The President when not acting in official and legitimate capacities should not be able to hide behind national security policies. That is what shithole countries allow, and I know that you know this is true.
Apologies for the confusion. My arguments are in anticipation of calls for the public release of other top-level communications between the president and foreign heads of state.
I am not blaming Congress for Mr. Trump’s release of the Trump-Zelensky call. What I am arguing against has not actually happened yet.
~Max
Would it help to say “manipulated” instead? You’ve seen enough of the guy by now to know how that’s done - flattery, making promises (that need not be kept) while getting them in return, commiserating about his “enemies” and how unfair they are to gain his trust. Any adult who has raised children of her own knows how to play that game. A former KGB head can do it in his sleep. Tell us, what has Trump ever done to cross Putin, or even stand up to him in any way? Or Kim, or any other dictator?
As for him actually being owned, his reaction to the hooker-pissing-tapes story shows that did happen. There may or may not actually be any tapes, but there don’t have to be for Putin to manipulate him with them. And he is still holding out the prospect of Trump Tower Moscow. The Russian banks bailing him out (via or along with Deutsche Bank) are another means.