This is a little offshoot of the “Dammit, mom, quit trying to endoctrinate my son!!” thread started by OpalCat. Anyway…
I live in the “bible belt” and see these bumper emblem things with the truth fish eating the darwin fish… ugh, where to start with this. I’ve never really understood how people can doubt the veracity of Darwin’s Theory of Evolution… I mean, is it really so implausible that he who lives longest reproduces most, thus becoming a more and more dominate species. ok, break it down into parts… make it simple for yourself. OK.
Mutations occur. Yep. Check. It’s true.
These Mutations may be beneficial, malignant, or neutral.
These mutations can effect the life of said creature
Creatures that are aided by their mutations will live better/longer/nuture better, etc, than their non-evolved ancestors.
more offspring = domination
ok, did i miss anything major here? when is this truth going to finally rid us of this ridiculous theory seemingly composed of so much common sense?
I find myself anxiously awaiting the truth…
ok, i feel better. i have a hard time with people ignoring the obvious.
Firstly, the whole darwin fish thing is ridiculous. So some Christians put an ixthus on their cars. So fucking what? Whom does it harm? I have a bumper sticker from Red Hook beer on my car, some folks advertise their club affiliation, or their fave bands, or whatever. How does it help an athiest or scientific cause to deliberately co-opt and ridicule the symbol?
(Sorry, Jab, I still love you, man.)
Secondly, Novus, please do me a favor and grab a more detailed understanding of evolution, willya? http://www.talkorigins.org is a great place to start.
What I find funny about the “Truth Fish eating Darwin Fish” thing is: isn’t the larger fish eating the smaller fish itself an illustration of natural selection in action?
Novus seems to have a grip of evolution quite nicely, considering it’s the Reader’s Digest Condensed version.
I could suggest why both sides feel threatened by the other. We’re social creatures, and despite all our talk about being independent, we’re not quite the go-it-alone types as we might think. We’re very much influenced by what goes on around us.
It’s only natural to feel threatened, or perceive ourselves as being ridiculed by others whose beliefs don’t match ours. Especially when those beliefs may be in complete opposition. More so when they’re “in our face” as in the case of bumper stickers.
Personally, I don’t have a problem reconciling both evolution and religion. I’m amazed that, somehow, all creatures have been ‘programmed’ with behaviors that attempt to improve the species’ chance of survival.
Well, from the original Christian fish–which itself exists in severaldifferentforms–we’ve recently seen an impressive degree of speciation, as the fish radiates into a variety of different ecological niches.
MEB, you’re right, of course. But I see it as a deliberate mockery of the Christian symbol. But neither of 'em keep me up nights.
erislover and bill:
:shrug: Perhaps I should have been more tactful. Apologies, Novus. Allow me to be more specific:
Darwin is to evolution as Johannes Kepler is to physics. That is, he was a brilliant thinker, and a foundation of the science, but not the whole of it. It is his theory no more than yours or mine. It might be pedantic of me, but I’ve found that citing “Darwin’s Theory of Evolution” is just begging for trouble. Evolution does not equal Darwinism; that’s a creationist trap that we cannot allow ourselves to fall into.
“Dominance,” however defined, is not an element of the theory. More adapted, yes, and more suited to an environment. But not more dominant (nor more complex, nor longer-lived).
Common sense is neither.
50 words? That way lies danger. No theory as complex as biological evolution can be expressed in any 50 words and withstand dedicated and determined ignorance, except in such broad terms that no specificity is possible. Providing an oversimplified and inaccurate description of evolution, with the holes filled in with “it’s just common sense,” will change no minds, and may in fact close them further.
But, here’s 120 words for you as a start, from Douglas J. Futuyma (Evolutionary Biology, Sinauer Associates 1986)
(Mr. Cyn, how about a Hassidic eating gefilte jesus fish?)
It has come to our attention that our Jesus Fish™ emblem has been co-opted by numerous and competing interests and employed for purposes other than originally intended.
Because we feel that these attempts at parody could be mistakenly identified with our corporation, we seek the immediate cessation of all fish-related logos, emblems and bumperstickers that do not have express written permission from Trinity Corp.
Failure to comply with this directive could lead to action including, but not limited to: plagues of locust, boils, barren wives, starvation, floods, wars and rumors of war, consumption by lions, blindness, swallowing by whales, destruction of olive orchards, demons being cast into your swine and damnation.
We trust that you understand the seriousness of this matter and will address it with all haste.
Here’s my attempt to answer, based on personal experience.
I was raised in a very conservative Christian church. My father was a member, so I had to follow him, three times a week to church (at least) until I hit my junior year of high school. No special significance to that year, I was just able to claim (with some truth) that I had too much homework to go. Thankfully, my dad valued education, unlike most of the members…but anyway…
Being raised in it, I didn’t question things. I know that sounds cliche, and it even conflicts with who I am (and was) outside of the faith…but nevertheless, I swallowed their explanations and justifications without thinking. Ten years ago, I had lots of ‘scientific’ ‘evidence’ as to why evolution was a lie. It never occured to me to think it may not be so; people who believed or promoted evolution were mistaken at best. So, in my case, at least, I automatically saw evolution (and lots of other things) as Wrong.
I was talking to a fundamentalist about evolution in undergrad (I had abandoned Christianity by then). He differentiated between micro- and macro-evolution, and, it’s the macro version that he was opposed to. Saying that a fish’s fin may grow or shrink over generations depending on its habitiat? That was acceptable; it could be veiwed and interpreted as God’s wisdom in action, helping his creation to adapt. But to say that there were more radical changes, that was un-Christian.
Personally, religious stuff on cars bothers me. You don’t care I’m an agnostic, I don’t care you’re a Christian. I think of that episode of Seinfeld where Elaine rips the Jesus fish off that guy’s (her bf’s?) car…heh
Well, not being a bible thumper of course I cannot speak for them, but I see any number of interpretations for this.
First, the “darwin fish,” while somewhat amusing to me, is really a slap in the face to people who are Christian and do believe in evolution. Contrary to some people’s beliefs (let’s call them anti-fundamentalist fundamentalists) they (evolution and religion) can be grasped simultaneously.
Second, the fish eating the Darwin fish might be a symbolic representation of this. As in, “Hey moron, who said I didn’t think evolution was factual?”
Third, er… well, there really isn’t a third. ::checks that it is the PIT:: Fuck you. [I suck at flames]
andros Well, calling someone on evolutionary theory in the pit just made me laugh, even if it was a little simplistic and misguided. I thought I was the only one who took actual debates to the pit!
Carry on.
aurelian
:rolleyes: I hate that they’ve got so many darn colors available. I just abhor any form of expression! And don’t get me started about those dang hubcaps…
Well, I’ve been personally assured by members of the Secular Humanist Supreme High Council that we’re still several years away from mandatory Darwin fish forehead tattoos.
Seriously, yes, there’s an undeniable element of mockery in the Darwin fish. There are certainly far worse things than mockery and satire, and Christians have not been above mockery or ridicule in their critiques of other religions and worldviews. Looking at the sheer number of “______ fish” that have sprung up, though, I think we’ve clearly moved beyond simple mockery and into the realms of co-optation–which is also something Christians have been wont to do in the past. (Christmas, anyone?)
I don’t suppose anyone can say that no one has used that bumper sticker with the intent to convey that meaning, but I’m pretty sure that most people driving around with the “Truth Fish Eating the Darwin Fish” stickers intend it to mean “Creationism beats Evolution”–and by “creationism” I mean most likely Young Earth Creationism, or some variant of creationism which is not very compatible with the findings of science. I think it’s at least as likely that some people with Darwin fish are actually Christian theistic evolutionists–it could be seen as a synthesis of Darwin and the original Jesus fish, no?
I suppose someone should really come out with an “ICHTHYS” fish with feet, if they haven’t already done so.
Oh, jesus h f****** christ, thank gawd you understand! I detest any form of self-expression, and that was exactly what I meant! Hey, were YOU expressing yourself just then?
sheesh. I was saying I didn’t like something. I don’t bitch at people about it, I don’t vandalize cars, I was. just. saying. I grew up a fundie that preached to people…I am the last person that wants to force my beliefs on someone. You didn’t need to be so harsh about it.
