Because human skulls come equipped with eyesockets as standard. Finding one without them would be hard.
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Maybe they decided later that the thing looked scarier without visible eyes?
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Well, shit - it’s in the rough draft, so it must have made the final version. :rolleyes:
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The xenomorphs on A:R are not the same as the xenomorphs in the three previous films. Those of us who have been paying the slightest attention to the films know that they have some small amount of human DNA, just as Ripley-8 has some xenomorph DNA.
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Which of course rules out all non-sight-based forms of sense, such as vibration detection or radar. :rolleyes:
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You’d be amazed to hear this, but you don’t need eyes to detect a source of intense heat.
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We’re back to vibration again.
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By that point in the movie we already knew that the xenomorphs were intelligent enough to plan. You should pay more attention.
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Your calling it proof does not make it so. Your omitting every possibility that doesn’t match what you first thought of doesn’t do this either.
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Well, you know - I went back to my DVDs, paused at a relevant place and zoomed in. Guess what? No fucking eyes!
Evil Death, nitpicking debates are fun but I can’t see where El Elvis Rojo has said anything that would warrant getting heated up about, other than asking for proof (which you gave, and heck, I’m on your side on this one, no eyes is cooler).
So, let me get this straight. They decided to use a human skull as a framwork to give the xenomorph
If that’s the case, why do they immediately cover it up? If the eye sockets weren’t of any importance whatsoever, then why not give the mask a visor like eyepiece for the actor to see out of? Or two golf ball sized holes, or any other kind of set up? When it comes to this kind of thing, I like to think they had a more viable reason for their choice, and it makes sense.
Hey, good point!
The dome is a rather simple evolutionary developement. As I said, there are other animals that have a specialized lens that covers the eyes so the animal never has to blink. Same thing here. Who knows if the aliens ever require sleep? If not, the dome is a wondeful way of giving the eyes protection, keeping them from drying out, and making it easy for the things never to be caught off guard while taking a nap.
Umm…to my knowledge, the xenomorphs in A:R were pretty much the same damn thing as all the others. I could be wrong, but aside from accelerated growth and the new reproductive system, I don’t think they mentioned another single difference between these xenomorphs and the others, so I don’t see why using these one’s isn’t as viable as any others.
Hmmm…I believe I mentioned sonar, which to my understanding is the same things as radar, no? :rolleyes:
You’re right, but you do need them to notice a two inch blue flame being directed at the egg as a threat.
I was paying attention. Using an elevator isn’t exactly what I would call “planning.” Cutting the power is one thing…using an elevator as opposed to, say, climbing the walls, is something completely different. And again, I don’t think anything that senses by smell or radar would quite get what an elevator was just by the doors opening.
And your denying what you see doesn’t make it wrong. Hey, if you can find me some specs somewhere that’s cannon that states that “The xenomorph are blind and see by means of radar and smell,” then I’ll give it to you. But you’re the one who’s blatantly ignored the fact that we actually see the xenomorph’s vision in Alien 3, and it’s not infrared, it’s not radar, and it’s not funny waves of technicolor goodness…it’s vision, just like that of a human (slightly distorted, in my opinion by the dome). Also, in some comics (Aliens: Book One for example) there are scenes of xenomorphs watching video monitors. To my knowledge, radar and scent can’t allow one to see images on a television monitor. Maybe you can prove me wrong there as well. But just because you think they’re cooler by being blind, doesn’t make it the truth, especially when there is proof to the contrary. Again, I ask you for some nice solid proof to the contrary. Or you could just use more :rolleyes" if you’d like.
Because as I said, it was just a framework. I don’t see you complaining that, in most buildings, you can’t see the structural girders it was built around; this is no different.
In the case of the final design, the human skull was nothing more than a point of reference.
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Your knowledge is incomplete. Gillis and Woodruff quite deliberately redesigned the xenomorph for the fourth movie.
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You know, you’ve just made yourself look very stupid with that sarcasm. Sonar is not radar - there are several colossal differences, not least of which is that sonar is based on sound and radar on electrical impulses. Sonar would probably have been blocked by that glass screen in A:R, whereas radar would not.
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Or any other kind of radiation-sensitive organelle. One possibility I didn’t outline is that the dome on the alien’s head may be a single, giant sensory organ that doesn’t necessarily function by sight. (Even if it does, though, the original argument was whether xenomorphs had eye sockets, not whether they had eyes.)
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Absence of evidence that the xenomorphs do not use conventional eyes to “see” is not proof that they do. Given that I’ve already told you that they visibly don’t have eyes, the burden is on you to prove otherwise.
Many species of bats, dolphins, and whales have perfectly good eyesight in addition to sonar so its not inconcievable that the xenomorphs could also have both. The xenomorph foreheads do look very similar to the sonar focusing melon of a dolphin or beluga whale.
So it’s like a very smart version of the blob?
Anyways,a Cecils grog could definitely kill a Thing, since it could make it kill itself and I don’t think the Thing has any long-range weaponry.
Ummmm…there’s a big difference. The xenomorph is not a building, so everything you see in it is there to look pretty and be seen. I can’t find any pictures online, but go find the book and you will see a few photos of the creature where you can see threw the dome and see it’s “face”. Again, why put the feature there if it isn’t meant to represent something? The thing was designed by an artist, and typically, they do shit like that for a reason.
Give me a quote. The only xenomorph to have any DNA transfer was the queen. Xenomorphs get some of their genetic material from the hosts, so all the other little guys would be the same as the critters from the first two movies. I just read the script the other day and aside from accelerated growth and a new reproductive system, I don’t believe a single difference is mentioned, and both of those were in reference to the queen. So please, fill me in on how they’re different. Do that, and I’ll believe you, otherwise, I just see you as being ignorant.
Okay, so I always thought radar was based on sound, sue me. I still don’t see how seeing in electrical impulses would help the xenomorph recognize “Little red button makes cold when pushed by silly man.”
See, that’s a good thought. Expand on it and give me some proof as to where you’ve come up with this idea, and I’ll believe you. Of course, I think any sensory organ would be treated a little better than being used to ram solid steel doors down. And how would having ridges grow to cover the majority of it effect it? Interesting questions I’d like to know. somehow, though, I don’t think you’ve got any evidence to support this.
And by the way, the original argument was whethor or not the zenomorphs had eyes. I pointed out they had huge eye sockets as a bit of proof that they did. Keep up, will you?
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And I believe I have. Or, at least that Alien 3 has. I still don’t see you coming back to disprove that. I mean, the proof doesn’t get any more blatant right there. They seem to have rather good vision, similar to that of a vulture, or eagle, or any other raptor. Again, they had the technology to show the creature’s vision as though it “sees” in a different way, and they chose typical vision with a fuzzy outline. Disprove that.
I always thought bats had piss poor eyesight? Besides that, you make a very good point, and as I said, I’m willing to believe you if someone shows stats that state “The xenomorph’s dome is also used as a sonar device.” I’m completely willing to accept that they have these other extra-sensory organs and the like. All I’m saying is that it’s been made rather obvious that the damn things DO have eyes…it’s just that they’re under the dome. Why? I don’t really know, I speculated that it’s an evolutionary protective thing. That little bit’s my own speculation, but hey, Alien 3 prooves they have eyesight, and not sonar sight, or heat vision, or anything like that.
If the things do have incredibly good vision (and possibly no blinking capabilities due to evolution of the dome, which could be complete shit), then incredibly bright lights would hurt the xenomorph’s eyes. Newt states that they mostly come out at night; could be sunlight doesn’t appeal to them because of this. If they didn’t have incredibly sensitive eyesight for seeing mostly in the dark, I don’t see why they’d avoid sunlight. Unless of course, the whole reason is they’re just nocturnal and hardly venture out in the day so as to stay better protected.
Still, the Thing could kick a xenomorph’s ass. hebesphenomegacorona, what exactly is a “Grog”? I take it that the thing has some sort of telepathic abilities? Hence, the ability to make creatures kill themselves. Still, though, it has been established that the Thing has some telepathic abilities of it’s own, and with the fact that each cell can exist as it’s own living organism, using telepathy against it may not prove to be so easy. And, depenting on what kind of technology is around and what weapons are available, the Thing has also been proven to be highly intelligent (mainly from absorbing other creatures), so it may be able to fashion something nice. Even if it can’t, the movie showed it can shoot out digestive/paralysing fluids rather effectively, so that may give it a bonus. How close does a grog need to be in order to effect other beings? If it has to get real close, I’m thinking the Thing could beat it with a tentacle or impale it with a big long claw, but if it’s like, a mile away, it would have some difficulty.
Bandersnatches just sound silly. I kinda like em, although against a swarm of xenomorph, I don’t think they’d do much good. Unless they managed to roll over the swarm, but then it’s be taking an acid blood bath, and I don’t think that would feel too good. Do they move rather fast? I’m still having difficulty seeing how they’d be well defended against tanks and the like.
I’ve sculpted a head I wanted to be vaguely humanoid. I started by designing the skull, then added the flesh to it.
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Arrogant li’l fucker, aren’t you? Anyway, I got your quote right here:
“The justification of its life style is that the creatures [in A:R] have all sprung from tainted DNA, so more possibilities are there. Outwardly, they don’t have a human quality because of their DNA being screwed up.”
- Alec Gillis, 1997
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Xenomorph see, xenomorph do. We call it cause and effect, and so long as the xenomorphs can in some way sense the button being pressed right before the nitrogen jets start - as it is explicitly stated that they can - it doesn’t matter how they do it.
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You’re basing your argument on how Fincher chose to shoot it. If you don’t know what Fincher had in mind, be still.
BTW, Fincher’s vision is far more consistent with the dome being a sensory organ than with it having eyes underneath the dome, and the only movie in which a xenomorph used its head as a battering ram was Aliens - where the xenomorph design didn’t include the dome, it having been eliminated to reduce the cost of making multiple Alien suits.
Good for you! I’ve done the same, and I’ve drawn pictures the same way. Tell me, when you designed this head, did the skull features effect the design of the face? I mean, if I were going to create something without eyes, I wouldn’t bother giving it eye sockets. But hey, that’s just me.
I don’t think it’s arrogance asking for proof. I mean, you’ve been doing it this whole time. At least I’m not putting my fingers in my ears, closing my eyes and screaming “I can’t hear you, waaawaaawaawaaawaaa” everytime I see something I don’t like. And from your quote, “Outwardly,they don’t have any human qualities” doesn’t tell us anything. Physically, they’re just like the other aliens from previous films. That doesn’t say whether or not they have eyes or if they use some other form of sight. Your quote has no wieght to either side of our little debate.
What’s your point? I’m questioning the form of observation. Radar vision may be nice, but that still doesn’t help explain it. Basic vision is still the best explaination in my mind. Prove me wrong.
Of course I’m basic it on how Fincher chose to shoot it, how else does one get information from films and the like? Do you have any concept of the whole “information gathering threw observation” process? If not from movies and stories, where are you getting your information for the alien’s biology? We’ve seen several other films where strange visual effects have been used to show a creatures “different than human’s” vision. He chose to make it simple, basic vision. Nothing special, no fancy lines or visible sound waves…just plain old light filtered threw ocular nerves and translated by the brain.
And how the hell do you think the aliens in every other film smashed threw doors? Battering rams? They use their head. Read the comics, play the video games, watch the movies. And why is it when I use costume design to prove my point, it’s unsupportive, yet when you do it, it’s supposed to be law?
Nope, I don’t think the Pak would be able to turn the defense on the Ringworld surface, even if it felt the future of the Ringworld was being threatened. In ‘The Ringworld Engineers’ the fate of the entire Ringworld depended on being able to fire the defense system on the ring surface, and the Pak in charge was unable to - she had to lure the protagonists into the area where it could be done, drop hints as to what was needed, and still she could not prevent herself from attacking them to stop them, and they only survived because she refrained from using her higher reasoning in the fight (allowed her Protector killer instincts to completely take over), which gave Louis and Speaker a chance to win.
Paks cannot wipe out large numbers of hominids for any reason, even if doing so would save the lives of 100 times as many.
No, that’s not true. In Protector the Pak that created Brenan-Monster states quite openly that he used cobalt bombs to kill and irradiate millions of breeders in order to free up Protectors from other factions to build his ships and crew them in order to save the greater number of the specis as a whole.
When it comes to Protectors you have a number of destinct groups. Pak Protectors who are the original ancestors of humanity and the Ringworld inhabitants. Human Protectors like Brenan and the femal companion of Luis Wu who had the power of luck ability because of the selective breeding programs. Night People Protectors who come from the scavenging Ghoul specis. And Vampire Protectors who come from the Vampire specis.
All of them have particular behaviors and motivations. Niven almost wrote himself into a corner by trying to define limits to a Protector’s methods and motivations. But while Teela Brown (I think that was Luis Wu’s friend) would not use the ramscoop engines on the surface of Ringworld itself Phssthpok (The last actual Pak Protector and the one who made Brennan) was certainly responsible to the deaths of several million Pak who were of no relation to him. Since Teela Brown wasn’t even from the Ringworld she should have had no reason to differ in motive other than her human cultural influence. I think Larry simple needed a plot device and hence the change in Protector behavior.
It just depends on who the protector was before becomine a protector. And being human is no guarantee. Brennen Monster, the first Human Protectro, killed thousands on Fiddler’s Green by exposing those too old to make the transformation to Protector along with thos of the proper physical maturity in order to create protectors to fight the incoming Pak fleet. His only inability was to kill his own descendants.
I think the Protector is the baddest ass mofo out there without getting into beings with godlike powers. Outsiders might be as a race the most powerfule around by the time Humanity discovers Ringworld and the Thrint may have had unstoppable mind control, but a Protector of any specis has to be the #1.
Looking at some of the heavy duty word slinging going on in this thread I’m just waiting for a nerd fight to break out. Someone is gonna’ get slapped with a slide rule any minute now.
Besides, the protector in question at the Ringworld was the former Teela Brown, a very sweet young lady who was firmly established in the first book as a remarkable dingaling.
The idea that she would then become a protector who was unable to kill a billion breeders in order to save the remainder of the Ringworld doesn’t surprise me, somehow. Particularly when we consider what REAL Pak protectors gleefully did to each other all over their original homeworld.
REAL Pak protectors were utterly freakin’ ruthless, and had remarkably little free will; they thought fast, drew conclusions, and acted in the manner that logic and pragmatism dictated. Human protectors, while equally intelligent (perhaps even more so) were often slowed down by considerations other than logic or pragmatism.
And even then, Brennan the Belter was able and willing to exterminate much of the population of Wunderland in order to break the back of the Pak armada.
Why not? The future of the human species was at stake!
But, for some reason, Teela couldn’t bring herself to wipe out five percent of the Ringworld’s population to save the other 95%? I can only say, “That’s Teela for you.”
Heckuva point, though. Would a Grog be able to mentally command a Thing to kill itself? Would a Grog realize what a Thing was by reading its mind?
I’ll be damned, but in this picture you can (sorta) make out the skull and eye sockets.
However, I would still put myself in the camp of people that say that the xenomorphs do not have eyes. While they may have originally had eyes in the artistic vision of Giger, they no longer do. In Gigers original design there were no Alien Queens (something that I strongly approve of), instead the victims of the aliens were cocooned (as in Aliens) and slowly mutated into eggs. A scene of Ripely discovering her mutated brethren and Dallas asking her to “kill me…” was filmed but later cut from the movie.
I think that we can safely assume that eyeless xenomorphs are now a part of the cannon, just as the stupid alien queens are.
Besides, this is much better than they’re having conventional eyes. The look of that creature without discernible sockets is so much terribly more “alien”.
I don’t even understand why you are all arguing over how they “see”. I just assumed that they have some sort of preternatural “alien sense”. Perhaps that entire phallus is some sort of highly evolved sensor array? That is what I have assumed.
Muad-Dib is right… eyeless Gigers are cooler and scarier, simply because we (as potential victims) don’t know HOW the creatures percieve us… or how to avoid being spotted!
Plus, that’s one less point of weakness… you can’t gouge it in the eye if it doesn’t have eyes.
If the Thing realizes what it is, then I would think a Grog could pick that up telepathically.
Some Things must know what they are… like that severed head in the movie that sprouted spider legs and moved around… surely it didn’t think it was still a man!
How many Things could a Grog handle at once? I can see a smart Thing suddenly splitting into a million mosquitos and swarming the Grog.
Then we’d have telepathic, mind-controlling Things to worry about.
This is scary stuff!
I propose that, henceforth, any human exploration of alien worlds should be preceded by the dropping of a nuke on the landing site!
Don’t got me no slide rule. Got me a stainless steel ruler with nice sharp pointy corners, though.
No, I’m starting no fights. If EER wants to live in Happy Wonderland Where He Is Right (population: 1), then let him. Personally, I’ve had enough of his bullshit and am taking myself elsewhere.
Well, hidding behind walls seemed to work rather well for Newt As for the “one less weakness,” that’s what the dome is for…to protect the eyes. You can’t gouge them, because the dome would stop it. Even if you did get threw the dome, you’d get blood on you anyway, and do yourself more harm than good. Three Stooges episodes would end REALLY quick.
But thanks for the picture Muad-Dib. I’ve been searching and searching for pictures of the alien skull from Predator 2, and suprisingly enough, found one on the LAPD website. www.lapdonline.org/get_involved/stolen_art/files/collectibles/alien_skeleton.html. Apparently, it got stolen back around 1995 or so? It’s a side shot, so it’s not that good, but it does look like they redesigned the skull, the front of it is smooth, but right behind the cheeck bones (or, whatever could best be described as such), there are what appear to be eyesockets. Smaller and on the side of the head, but they’re there. They also changed the teeth. There’s also this skull model www.alienscollection.com/thaigkkit.jpg. It’s a little different, but it shows eye sockets a little farther up front. Whether either of these count as canon, I don’t know. I did search around and find a website for a roleplaying game that discussed the alien biology in an essay as though written by a scientist who had been disecting them. It pointed out that sound wouldn’t be a good method of vision, because seeing as how the things are apparently designed to function in a vaccuum, sound based senses would be rather useless. It could use heat, but that would mean they would be unable to see each other, because apparently, xenomorph emit no body heat (they don’t show up in thermal scans according to Aliens). It talkes about them having eyes, so that they could see one another and also for use of depth perception, but also speaks of the possibility of other types of senses to help. Rather interesting essay. Again, I doubt it’s canon though.
Also, just for fun, there’s two models of “Giger’s Alien”, one with the dome, one without.
I don’t have a slide rule either. I got a some escrima sticks though.
What’s the matter ED? So someone else shows up with proof and you run away? Fine by me. You asked me for proof they had eyes, I gave some to you. Not my fault you cover your own eyes and cry you can’t see it. But if you ever get involved in an argument of real importance, I suggest you find a different way of going about it. Maybe I live in a “Happy Wonderland Where I’m Always Right”, but at least I’m not someone with the debating skills of a five year old in this one.
Again, for the record, I never said they didn’t have any other type of extrasensory perception…I’m just saying the damn things have eyes!
Also, Vlad, seeing as you know something of the Grog, can you fill me in on what they are and where they’re from?
And I’ve never read any of the Ringworld stuff. What’s so great about the Protectors, and who are the Pak? I can’t tell if it’s just a nickname for the Protectors, or a separate species of creature?
