The ULTIMATE Alien

Fighting on the interenet is like winning the gold medal in the Special Olympics. Even if you win, you are still retarded.

I make one crack about a nerd fight and people bust out with arsenal descriptions. You guys don’t know one another from Adam and will likely NEVER meet.

Christ. How old are you people? If it’s over 25 and you are acting like this you both really need to get out more. If it’s under 25 I guess that’s just normal behavior.

And for the cussing efforts, used to be that was worthy of a stern warning and if it degenerated further a closing of a thread. Knock it off fellas.

You both got testosterone issues to work off? Join the military. Chances are North Korea never heard of Giger Aliens . And the way things look you might get a chance to take it out on them.

And unless we hit the Phillipenes those Escrima sticks probably won’t be standard battlefield issue.

A Grog is a little cone shaped fellow about a meter tall and covered in coarse fur. The are native to the planet Down in Larry Niven’s Known Universe. They have extreme mind control abilites and a big mouth full of sharp teeth. Grogs are functionally bi-sexual. Immature ones are mobile and fertilize mature ones. Once sexually mature they find a big rock, and sit on it and wait to be fertilized by immature Grogs. They use mind control to get food to hom right into their mouths. They are also empathic telepaths with very strong powes along those lines. This ability has led to the game “Slug A Grog” invented by scientific interns studying them on Down. The game is played by erecting a tent within the telepathic range of a sleeping Grog. The “Slugger” gets completely trashed on liquor or drugs. When the Grog wakes up they scan the mind inside the tent. At this point the tent occupant is usually still trashed or really hung over. The psychic shoc tends to make the Grog fall of it’s rock. This game has been discouraged on Down and most research facilities are now “dry”.

What is so bad ass about a Protector? Top down. They are all supergenius level intelligence. Able to calculate as fast as modern computers (Modern computers in the 50th century that is). They are able to thing so effectively that they can instantly appraise a situation in flux and change strategy accordingly. A group of them do not need to communicate because they are all so gifted and therefore all work in tandem as needs arise. Another benefit of their brain capacity is physical coordination. Like how Captain America used to be able to throw his shield and calculate ricochets off weird and moving objects to take out opponents. Protectors have been known to use a combination of strategic thought, strength, and instand vectoring to throw a ball bearing from a space ship at another space ship (disabling it in the process) while moving at a percentage of c. Able to engage dozens of opponents easily.

Their sense of smell is so accute they can detect the slightest genetic mutation. Hearing and eyesight are comperable.

They are also practically immortal and tend to make long term plans spanning millenia because of this.

Able to shut off the effects of pain and fatigue. In fact they do not really need sleep. They do no produce fatigue poisons.

They have radically oversized joint groups and super dense muscle mass. The combination gives them incredible strength.

They have skin like leather armor and no outward genitals. No ball-kicking for a Protector.

Most Protectors are utterly ruthless. In all likelyhood the ones that actually built the Ringworls eradicated a dozen life bearing and populate planets in order to complete the project. There would have been no debate over the matter. Again they have an imperative and an ability to instantly follow it to the limit.

The fact that they built a ringworld at all puts them well beyond any other specis mentioned in matters of technology. Ane specis build a Dyson Sphere? They made a form of matter “Scrith” so durable it took a comet the size of a moon or planetoid to punch a relatively small hole in it. It can withstand direct solar plasma lasing. It is only vulnerable to anti-matter apparently and a Sinclarin monomolecular filament appliend with great force.

“The Thing” is the only challenge for them because it can assume intelligence. But I don’t think one could get close enough to a Protector to be a threat. They don’t sleep and are so xenophobic that they just take no risks. They are the kind of people who would nuke the Earth for a thousand or ten years just to be sure ALL life was eradicated before coming down for some basic minerals.

But, they DO love their kids.

For a very detailed description of Pak vs other forms of Protector check out Kevin Steins “A Guide to Larry Niven’s Ringworld”. It has illustrations and very detailed descriptions. Niven Authorized and approved of the content so it’s the gosphel.

I think it can handle anything that gets in its field, since it has total mind control.

Yeah, but that’s assuming that a Grog could read a Thing’s mind to begin with.

If it could… hm. How would it have a Thing kill itself? Every cell would have to be destroyed.

If it couldn’t… eek.

Oh, and in regards Protectors:

Protectors are basically human beings who have undergone a sort of metamorphosis. Pak come in three stages: child, breeder, and Protector.

Child is self-explanatory. Breeder is basically Homo Habilis, a kind of smart ape. When a Breeder reaches a certain age, the smell of a certain plant drives him nuts, and his instincts make him gorge like hell on it. The plant, “Tree Of Life,” carries a symbiotic virus that interacts with human DNA in such a way as to complete the changeover and turns a human into a Protector, a creature described in some detail above by Zen101.

Protectors’ entire function is to protect their bloodline. They care for breeders and children, and fight other Protectors whose interests do not coincide with their own. They have to be careful, of course – after all, you don’t want your own bloodline getting too inbred – but you also don’t want your clan wiped out because the Protectors of the Yellow Rock clan think your valley would be a nice place to expand.

And yes, they’re quite ruthless about it.

Here’s the fun part: Earth was colonized a million years ago by Pak protectors. One large clan. They landed in Africa, turned the breeders loose, planted tree of life, and sat back to enjoy the good life.

Unfortunately, the symbiotic virus needed thalium in the soil in order to grow in tree of life. The plant grew, but the virus died. Without regular infusions of the virus, the protectors died.

Leaving a planet full of Homo Habilis to grow and evolve without Protectors. They couldn’t evolve while Protectors lived; any mutation or deviation from the norm would be killed, to protect the bloodline.

A million years later, Humanity moved outward from Earth, and colonized the asteroid belt. Civilization was at its peak. What they didn’t know was that a Protector back home had recieved the last distress call from Earth a million years ago… and had organized a rescue ship, loaded with tree of life and tons of thalium oxide. He intended to seed Earth with the stuff, and make the entire human race into his clan, you see.

It never occurred to him that we might have evolved, in the meantime. Even protectors can make mistakes. He didn’t even recognize us as breeders until the prisoner he took went bughouse and gorged on the tree of life roots he had in the cargo pod… and changed into a human protector.

Human protectors are slightly smarter than Pak protectors, but not much, and not quite as bound by logic and pragmatism. They have a little more free will. But even then, they think and move INSANELY fast. Once the prisoner, Brennan, understood what was happening, he instantly killed the Pak protector, because Brennan realized that if tree of life was ever seeded on Earth, civilization was doomed. Earth would become a world of eternal war between protectors, same as the Pak planet.

Brennan had children, you see, and didn’t much like that kind of a world for them. Brennan was capable of taking the long view, AND the wide view – that his kids might be happier if they never knew a super-monster was looking out for their best interests. Instead, Brennan began manipulating society behind the scenes, to make the world in general a better place.

Until he realized that a Pak armada was approaching…

It has been established in the Niven universe that Bandersnatch are immune to psychic powers. Furthermore, they aren’t even detectable as being sentient to a telepath. The species was modified to fight the Slavers, who had powerful mind control abilities, yet were unable to affect the Bandersnatch.

So it’s likely that a Bandersnatch could handle Grogs without any trouble.

But…but…pissing contests are FUN!!! Yeah, the arguments are stupid, but technically you can say that about every debate on this board, so why not have fun with it? Seems to be over now anyway, so I’m glad to see the thread’s moving on.

The whole Ringworld thing sounds rather interesting. One question about the book though…are they fun to read? I know there are a lot of interesting books out there that sound good, but reading them’s like driving a nail threw your skull. What book does the series start with?

Also, you mention that metal is super hard…how do you think it would react to xenomorph blood?

I like that whole “Slug a Grog” game. Man, people can be so inventive. Just like space-age cow tipping. I can see where a Thing might be able to overcome one rather easily, though. If it’s assumed the shape of a small bird or animal, a grog could potentially control it’s mind and eat it if the Thing doesn’t attain full conciousness prior to that. Once eaten, it would take the Grog over from the inside out. I forget who asked about it, but from the book, it seemed many people at times who were taken over by infection were copied so well, that they never knew they were things until after they were murdered.One character was screaming a religious rant, and when everyone was watching a movie and ignoring the sound, someone else stuck a knife in his throat. It wasn’t until they moved the body into another room and someone walked in alone that it came alive and attacked him. I guess the whole “Well, I’m dead, but still rather concious” kinda helps the Thing remember exactly what it is..

Outside from just telepathically nabbing something and eating it, can the Grog do anything else offensively speaking?

The first book in the Ringworld series is called simply “Ringworld”. Followed by “Ringworld Engineers” and “Ringworld Throne”.
If you’re interested in Protectors, read “Protector”, too.

Niven’s stuff is generally pretty entertaining and easy to read. I never found a Niven book that I had to force myself through, although I should specify that I haven’t read all of them.

The Grog would have access to the weaponry of everyone near it, so if Kurt Russell was around, it could order him to blast the Thing with a flamethrower. :slight_smile:

I get this mental image of all the other aliens ripping each other apart, purely for the Grog’s amusement…

Or a line of xenomorphs doing a can-can routine. Complete with frilly French dresses.

The fact that they CAN function in a vaccuum doesn’t mean that they are designed for it. We never see an alien in a total vaccuum for more than a minute in any of the movies and even a human can last that long unprotected. In any case, they have been demonstrated to have a sense of smell, a sense also rather useless in a vaccuum. This leads me to conclude that it is their tough hide that allows them to survive for a time in a vaccuum.

As for the RPG information, such sources are often inaccurate and as a rule do not take precedence over things directly observed in the movie.

I didn’t watch too much of the show, but how would one of the shapechangers from Deep Space 9 hold up in a fight? I mean, they can change into virtually any shape, living or inorganic; physical attacks don’t harm them; size doesn’t really seem to propose much of a problem (they can be a 300 lb Klingon one minute and a ten pound falcon the next); and they don’t seem to have a typical cellular structure, from what I can tell. A xenomorph’s acid blood would probably give them issues, but I can’t see it being much of a problem otherwise. I don’t know if a Thing would be able to take it over/infect it. Not knowing much about Protectors and some of the other alien races, I can’t really say, though. And I’m not sure how well they’d hold up against psychic attacks, but if they’re immune, that’s another bonus.

Sock Munkey, I know RPGs aren’t always accurrate or canon, and this one in particular seemed to be a fan based one, but it was still a rather interesting article, so I linked it. I know there were a couple Aliens games, and possibly an “official” RPG game. Does anyone have any information on these, and possible specs based off of them? When it comes to canon, I’m thinking some RPGs can be considered good sources, no? There are a couple Star Wars RPGs, would the information in those be conisdered canon if they were put out by Lucas Arts or whatever company produced the first movies?

I have a very hard time accepting the shapeshifters from Deep Space Nine. A fluid lifeform is one thing. A fluid lifeform that can become mist or even FIRE is quite another. That’s just nuts. Can’t swallow that.

And if MY life depended on it, I could operate quite functionally in vacuum for a period of time equal to that that ANY Alien did so in any of the movies. Hell, if Sigourney Weaver blew MY ass out an airlock, I’d reel myself in and head for the nearest large opening on the spacecraft, TOO! At least, until my brain exploded or Sigourney hit the IGNITION button, whichever happened first. And on the occasions that an Alien has been blown into space, they were quite vocal about the fact that they did NOT like it out there…

Movies are always considered to be the most “cannon” and supersede all other sources.
(I don’t always agree with the way things are explained in movies myself but whaddayagonnado?)

Since we’re started on Niven creatures, by the way, it’s worth mentioning that an Avalonian grendel can probably shred almost anything nonsentient. They’re a very large and hungry amphibian/reptilian, with a metabolism based on something remarkably like rocket fuel. But they’re not really a contender against anything that knows what it’s up against and is smart enough to make fire: While on “speed”, they’re on the verge of cooking themselves through, and an outside heat source will toast them up quite nicely.

Out of the critters thus far mentioned, I suspect that a grendel could take out an equal body mass of xenomorphs. The only problem would be the xenos’ acidic blood, but grendels are remarkably resistant to corrosives, and after a battle, they head straight for the nearest running water to dissipate heat, which would probably also wash off the worst of the acid.

If you’re going to talk about grendels, Chronos, you should also talk about what eats the grendels. :smiley:

That aside, how about the swarms from Beowulf’s Children? Untold millions of critters that are basically carnivorous locusts is a scary thought.

I don’t think we’ve fully assessed the potential threat of the Thrints, either. Granted, they were stupid, and not as physically impressive as many of the other critters we’ve discussed, but there was that bit about them maybe accidentally wiping out nearly all sentient life in the galaxy.

Wait…the shapechangers from DS9 could turn into fire? That’s just silly. Mist, I could understand, but FIRE? Hmmm…

Now Balance, what are the Thrints? Were they really anything special, or was their crowning achievement their big “accident”? I don’t think clumsey really counts as a viable offensive ability. If so, Jar Jar could conquer the universe. Now THAT’s a scary thought.

Also, does anyone else know a lot about the replicators from Stargate: SG-1? I’ve only seen a few episodes of that, but they seem to be the kind of alien that, when they show up, the genral tactic is “Run like hell!” From what I’ve seen, anything short of crashing an infected ship into a sun or planet leaves you open to further infestation.

And what about the Critters? They were intelligent enough for space travel, and when you get enough of them, they are a force to be reconned with. Although, one on one, they’re pretty much burger meat.

Thrints are the ancestors of the Grogs. They had similar powers - they had the inherent ability to control the minds of almost anything with a brain. When they realized they were losing their war with the Tnuctipun, they built a device that amplified their powers and basically shouted ‘DIE’ at the universe, and nearly every multicellular being with a brain died - the only exception were the beings that were in stasis at the time.

And the Bandersnatch. Immune to compulsion as they were.

Also I’m unsure if Grogs are descended from Thrint. They have only been found on one world so far and physically they bear little resemblence to Thrint. If there is a relation it is more likely akin to the one we have with higher primates like chimps. Also Grogs don’t eat and poop from the same orifice and are functional hermaphrodites. Thrint had two distinct sexes.

You mean, grendels? :wink: And admittedly, scribes take out grendels easily, but they’re not a threat to anything quick enough to move out of their way (that is to say, anything but grass) and not stupid enough to attack them.

The speedbugs in the sequel mostly fall into the same category as the grendels themselves, in that any intelligent creature can easily counter them. And in addition, a good number of indiginous Avalonian species seemed to have adapted well enough to the speedbugs: Hide in the mud, turn blue, outrun them, have a carapace too tough for them, etc. Whereas the only strategy the local fauna has for dealing with grendels seems to be “don’t meet one”. So I’m going to say that the speedbugs are rather less of a threat than the grendels.

And on another note, I may be misremembering, but isn’t there some evidence that the Kzin might be / be decended from the Tnuctipun?

No way are the Kzin descended of the Tnucripun. Like all organic life originating within our galaxy they are most likely descended of mutated food yeast seeded in oceans to feed the Thrint.

The reason being is that no sentient specis, including Tnuctipun, (Except Bandersnatchi who were genetically modified to resist compulsion) survived the amplified death command that wiped out the Thrint. The only exemptions were beings in stasis. So far two Thrint and one Tnuctipun have been found living, all because of stasis fields. One is the “sea monster” in the Museum of Natural History (Thrint), another was a Thrint who went into stasis upon colliding with a meteor and was revived orbiting Wunderland and who nearly took over that solar system, the third was a Tnuctipun who was also found on Wunderland inside a capsule in stasis. He too wreaked havok even without mind control powers.

They bear no biological resemblence to Kzin at all. Some people think Thrint are related to Grogs, but it isn’t likely and most of this assumption is based on the ability to use mind control. But this may be a coincidence. As there were no sentient specis left after the mass suicide order it is more likely, if there is a relation, that the Grogs are descended of a specis related to the Thrint but non-sentient. Like us and great apes.

For a while, Niven considered writing a story that would link the Kzin to the tnuctip, but decided not to. The anecdote about this decision is in his collection “N-Space”.

Basically, he says Norman Spinrad got him thinking about writing a story that would destroy the whole “Known Space” chronology and background, then move on and write about other things. Niven decided not to, and went on to write “Ringworld” instead.

Some of the ideas he mentioned for the story that never was:

  Kzin are modified tnuctip who were settled on the Kzin planet as part of a long-range tnuctip plot.

  The Thrint never existed.   Kzanol was gene-engineered, given fake memories, and dropped on Earth as part of the plot.

  Beowulf Schaffer never went to the Core (he was tricked), and there is no Core explosion.   Part of the tnuctip plot.

  Apparently, the heart of the plot was to get half the sentient species in the galaxy moving outward in slow-hyperdrive ships, where the tnuctip could pretty much pick them off at will.

 There's more to it, but that's what I remember off the top of my head.