The Unfortunate Effect of the Negative Stereotype [ed. title]

Great Debates
81

[QUOTE=focusonz]
I listed ½ dozen pieces of evidence that hate was not used as motivation and contradicted successfully one piece of evidence that you offered.
[/QUOTE]
You offered evidence that other motivations might exist as well – something I don’t dispute.

Was that service in the volunteer military we have now, or during a draft?

Don’t you think that the senior command during World War II, confronted with millions of soldiers and sailors who had been involuntarily compelled to serve, might have faced morale challenges that are absent in our current all-volunteer service … ?

82

[QUOTE=focusonz]
Don’t you just hate that the score is 7 to 1 in my favor.
[/quote]

To expand on Bryan Ekers’ much-earlier point, your tone here is not at all in accordance with your stated message of convincing people to evaluate arguments only on their merits. You keep saying that you’re opposed to anything that interferes with communication, like prejudice, but you’re keeping score and taunting people, as well as touting your own wisdom and acting as boss of the thread. These tactics are not going to win anybody over to your side and they do not support your arguments. They may be just as ineffective as prejudice and name calling and the other things you’re decrying in this thread. It sounds like you are posting for the same “bad” reasons everyone else does, though I think you’d be loathe to admit it.

In case it’s unclear, I’m speaking as a poster here, not as a moderator.

83

[QUOTE=sqweels]
Enough of this already! Those kinds of things just aren’t going to happen in this day and age in the US.
[/QUOTE]

Those kinds of things have happened see List of riots - Wikipedia and most recently:
* 2008 - Striking dock workers clash with riot police at state-controlled Piraeus (OLP) and Thessaloniki (OLTH) ports [37],Greece, Jan 11+15
* 2008 - Riots in Belgrade on embassy’s of countries recognizing the independence of Kosovo by Serbian nationalists.
* 2008 - Tibetian unrest, Mar. 10 - Present. (Tibet, China)
* 2007-2008 - Food riots in Mexico, India, Peru, Morocco, Egypt, Bangladesh, Pakistan, Italy, Austria, Hungary, Zimbabwe, Mozambique, Namibia, Uzbekistan, Indonesia, Yemen, Guinea, Cameroon, Burkina Faso, Mauritania and Senegal.
* 2008 - Haitian Price riots, Apr. 3, 4 killed/20 wounded., Les Cayes Haiti
* 2008 - Egypt Price and Wage riots, Apr. 6-7, 1 killed, 20 injured, 25 arrested, Mahalla el-Kubra, Egypt
* 2008 - April 21 fans burn police cars in Montreal when Montreal Canadiens defeat Boston Bruins in first round of NHL Playoffs
* 2008 - 1. May riots in Hamburg, Berlin and Nürnberg (Germany) an Manila (Philippines) May Day Violence: Hamburg Sees Worst Rioting in Years - DER SPIEGEL

Those kinds of things can happen in a split second.
It would take just one New Madrid earthquake, which the US could not absorb quickly, for all the pent up hatred to come oozing out.

Hurricane Katrina did not result in civil unrest because the millions of people were absorbed within a few weeks by surrounding states. But the pent up hatred for government, it leadership, and between the political parties was obvious. And the lack of cooperation between the political leadership left 10’s of thousands stranded without water for days at the super bowl.

[QUOTE=sqweels]
By failing to acknowledge the political evolution that has taken place since then, you are doing a disservice.
[/QUOTE]

What evolution these GD have devolved to name calling and prejudice. See Post #1
Only 2 posters out of 17 which I scaled according to manifestation of prejudice have responded to this thread to defend their statements

84

Using big letters isn’t evidence, either.

Of course hate (especially blind fury) gets in your way when you’re in the midst of the inglorious business of killing people, but that’s not what every American soldier, sailor and Marine in the Pacific was doing all the time. In between battles, there was a lot of down time for individual soldiers to start reflecting on their discomforts and lost buddies and maybe wonder what the heck the point of the whole thing was. Reminding them that the enemy was to be hated during this down time made it less likely that a commanding officer would one day say “Let’s go get those dirty Japs!” and a man would respond “What the hell for? They never did anything to me.”

Based on this, I figure your “score” is nullified, and your immature crowing puts you in the negatives all by itself. If you want to attribute a particular emotion to me after this post, knock yourself out. The only one I’m feeling is low-level contempt.

85

[QUOTE=Marley23]
To expand on Bryan Ekers’ much-earlier point, your tone here is not at all in accordance with your stated message of convincing people to evaluate arguments only on their merits.
[/QUOTE]

I have accepted defeat a priroi to convincing people to evaluate arguments only on their merits. Prejudice is any unreasonable attitude that is unusually resistant to rational influence.

[QUOTE=Marley23]
You keep saying that you’re opposed to anything that interferes with communication, like prejudice, but you’re keeping score and taunting people,
[/QUOTE]

Since rational influence is not a tool that can be used in this case then the only recourse is to put up a score card. The MOD won’t do it http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=9792356&postcount=18 and so I being a newbie will do it. My only taunt is a dare to look at what it is. I can’t convince people to look so my only recourse is to dare them.

[QUOTE=Marley23]
as well as touting your own wisdom and acting as boss of the thread. These tactics are not going to win anybody over to your side and they do not support your arguments.
[/QUOTE]

This thread is a therapy session. People can elect to visit thread or not. I can’t make them do it they have to question themselves about their own behavior. When they do visit I have responded with as much caring and empathy as I can muster. And I reference as much psychological sources and definitions and keep referring to http://www.moretolife.org/courses_more-to-life.cfm. They have to heal themselves.

[QUOTE=Marley23]
They may be just as ineffective as prejudice and name calling and the other things you’re decrying in this thread.
[/QUOTE]

That may be but I thought I would take time from my life to try to help others with:

Our Limiting Beliefs
These unnoticed beliefs include judgments we hold against ourselves and others, demands and expectations about how everything should be, and grievances we may have lived with for years. This unconscious activity not only generates stress, it diverts us from realizing our most cherished aims. To win, stay in control, or do ‘the right thing’ we end up blaming one another, driving ourselves, manipulating people and events, striving to placate, and often just pretending to be happy.

There are so many very intelligent people here in GD and in America that it just saddens me greatly “That we can’t get along, w/o hate.

[QUOTE=Marley23]
It sounds like you are posting for the same “bad” reasons everyone else does, though I think you’d be loathe to admit it.
[/QUOTE]

What are your bad reasons for posting? Is it comforting for you to assume that everyone else has those same bad reasons? What makes you feel that if I am different from you that would be ‘bad’.

Creativity in Life
Life is fundamentally creative, and so are we. Every day we make choices about our relationships, our projects, and our goals that impact our effectiveness and our sense of fulfillment. But the extent of our real creative potential is rarely glimpsed, because of automatic assumptions we carry with us throughout our lives.

86

[QUOTE=focusonz]
Since rational influence is not a tool that can be used in this case then the only recourse is to put up a score card.
[/QUOTE]
Has it occured to you that maybe the techniques you decry in other threads arise from the same motivation?

For you perhaps. For me its a temporary diversion during the work day. I like to argue and the Straight Dope provides me with a constructive outlet for those impulses.

Your charity is touching.

I don’t want to “get along” with people who act in ways that are destructive and dangerous. I want to see them marginalized and defeated.

87

[QUOTE=Pochacco]
I don’t want to “get along” with people who act in ways that are destructive and dangerous. I want to see them marginalized and defeated.
[/QUOTE]

Everybody does something destructive and dangerous so
You have to get along with them everyday, they stock your grocery store, they ship your packages, they deliver the fuel to your gas station, they operate your reactors, they teach your children, they fight your forest fires, they catch your fish, they slaughter your beef, they operate the farms, they staff your hospitals, they walk the halls in your company, they are next to you in traffic on the freeway, they attend the churches and synagogues, they operate your local, state, and national government, they are in the insurance companies and financial companies handling your IRA, and they are in every walk of life in these United States.

You can marginalize me, you can defeat me, you don’t need to be lonely anymore, you have me.

88

So how do we move individuals and groups away from an ideology of hate?

  1. Challenging the belief system that underlies it and seek information
  2. Reverse the objectification - make the hated fully human again
  3. Expanding our personal circles and trying to understand a variety of perspectives. (Understanding does not mean agreeing with).
  4. Refusing to be co opted by hate or fear

I have said all I am going to say. And it is what it is. I will check back to see if there is any help I can lend.

My plan is to again attend a More To Life course in Knoxville, TN, United States prior to the November Elections.

I need to practice my personal discipline and to continue noticing my unconscious habits of thinking. I know it will be worthwhile and will help me deal with the onslaught of negativity during this election cycle.

My previous experience 10 years ago was awesome and I felt cherished and respected. The trainers and assistants have jobs with the the Oak ridge and other companies around Knoxville.

Each person who is committed to getting something positive from the course will without a doubt.
Make a reservation and see you there. http://www.moretolife.org/calendar/

89

[QUOTE=focusonz]
Since rational influence is not a tool that can be used in this case then the only recourse is to put up a score card.
[/quote]

It’s not the only recourse, it’s just the one you’ve chosen. Probably because it makes you feel smart.

This strategy is bound to fail for the same reasons you say prejudice fails.

There’s a lot of intense arguing on this board but little actual hate. To deem this stuff hateful you’re making unrealistic, ridiculous equivalences like this Night of the Long Knives analogy.

Once again you’ve misunderstood. I don’t think there are bad reasons for posting. I do think there are reasons for posting that, under the criteria you are laying out, are ‘bad.’ And I think you’re engaging in them anyway because it’s satisfying to you.

90

This is supposed to be a therapy session?

You may intend well. And whatever works for you is your choice. But I will be sixty-five in July and have lived under twelve United States Presidents. My choices were not based on prejudice. They were based on information that I consider relevant. Let’s look at what you consider relevant:

  1. To be it is relevant that Bush failed to fund No Child Left Behind. He might as well have gone into the hospitals of American and declared NPSD. No Patient Shall Die.

  2. Cheney has been one of the driving forces behind the attack on Iraq – a country which did not attack us. He has persistently tried to tie that attack to September 11th and to create fear in the minds of the American people with lies.

  3. My comment about Charles Manson was mainly the hyperbolic part.

  4. Rush Limbaugh promotes ignorance, chaos, and prejudice. He’s never met just a “feminist,” has he? Any woman who stands up for gender equality is a “feminazi.”

  5. They don’t have families to support. Where did you get that? Lynne Cheney gave up a $120,000 a year job when her husband became Veep. Laura Bush was a teacher. Rush Limbaugh has no wife and no children to speak of.

  6. It is their possible contributions to the future, as I explained earlier, that are the reason that I leave them until last. I base that on their contributions in the past.

  7. Their American citizenship is irrelevant. Are you prejudiced against non-Americans?

91

[ Moderating ]
[QUOTE=focusonz]
Don’t you just hate yourself when I am right and you are wrong?

. . .

Don’t you just hate yourself for not winning on the fist kickoff!

. . .

Don’t you just hate that the score is 7 to 1 in my favor.
[/QUOTE]

Dancing around claiming a victory that only you see–and doing it in a taunting manner–is one of the signs that I have come to associate with trolling. Posters have been specifically ordered to refrain from condescension when it appears that it is only posted for the purpose of riling up other posters.

Whatever you may think is going on in this thread, neither the thread nor the poster may long survive the continued use of this tactic.

(And for someone who is going on at length about the negative aspects of hatred, it seems rather hypocritical to post in such a way as to encourage dislike (i.e. nascent hatred) from other posters.

ETA:

This whole thread had better not have been an attempt (however poorly executed) simply to shill for this outfit.

[ /Moderating ]

92

[QUOTE=Pochacco]
Hate can cloud your judgement. But it can also spur you to action.

In any case the question isn’t SHOULD Halsey have incited hatred in his troops, but DID he? The answer is: Yes, he did. A significant fraction of our leaders during World War II believed that encouraging our soldiers and sailors to hate the Japs and the Krauts was strategically important to winning the war. (Halsey wasn’t alone in this. He is an extreme example, but he was never told to desist from whipping up his subordinates in this fashion.) If you think they were mistaken in their judgement then you need to provide evidence for situations where excessive hatred of the enemy resulted in defeat on the battlefield.

As does a disregard for historical fact.
[/QUOTE]

First of all, because some teach hate, doesn’t make teaching hate right. There are many groups, cults, religions that teach hate. Pointing out examples does not make teaching hate right any more than pointing out people who teach others to steal or kill or whatever makes their teachings right. Hate is wrong. One can only give to others what he himself owns. If you own hate, then you will give hate. If you own love, you will give love. Hate is like battery acid to your body, it consumes it totally in time. It is not wise to invite hate into your life in any form. Show me one, just one, historical person who is honored for teaching hate. Not Socrates, Ghandi, Jesus, Albert Schweitzer, Martin Luther King, Dalai Lama, etc., etc., etc. They all taught Love with a capital L.

There is no defense for hate, no need to hold hate, no gain in doing so.

93

[QUOTE=lekatt]
First of all, because some teach hate, doesn’t make teaching hate right.
[/quote]
It doesn’t make it wrong, either.

[QUOTE=lekatt]
Hate is wrong.
[/quote]
No, it’s morally neutral. As is the emotion you like to go on and on about, love. Love is not by nature virtuous, nor is hate by nature evil.

[QUOTE=lekatt]
One can only give to others what he himself owns. If you own hate, then you will give hate. If you own love, you will give love.
[/quote]
If someone hates the AIDS virus and develops a cure, they’ve given freedom; if someone hates slavery they can give freedom. If someone loves a serial killer they can help give death to his victims; if someone loves his country they can give death to foreigners; if someone loves an abuser they can bring death to themselves. While your rhetoric may sound noble in a mushy-cliche sort of way, it’s not. Hatred is at least as likely to be constructive as love.

[QUOTE=lekatt]
It is not wise to invite hate into your life in any form. Show me one, just one, historical person who is honored for teaching hate.
[/quote]
Most of the people who fought against oppression or invasions comes to mind.

94

That doesn’t work in the analogy. Agendas are rescued from a fire. The people who hold them or who hold other agendas are.

And that reminds me. You haven’t indicated that you consider it relevant who the other people in the fire are and what their agendas are or how valuable they are to the world communities.

Logically, someone has to be last. My decision to make Limbaugh, Bush and Cheney last is an informed and reasoned one. Certainly my comments contain no negative stereotypes.

I don’t consider war-mongering and misusing the public trust to be a “personal attribute” when it involves an elected official.

95

[QUOTE=Der Trihs]
It doesn’t make it wrong, either.

No, it’s morally neutral. As is the emotion you like to go on and on about, love. Love is not by nature virtuous, nor is hate by nature evil.

If someone hates the AIDS virus and develops a cure, they’ve given freedom; if someone hates slavery they can give freedom. If someone loves a serial killer they can help give death to his victims; if someone loves his country they can give death to foreigners; if someone loves an abuser they can bring death to themselves. While your rhetoric may sound noble in a mushy-cliche sort of way, it’s not. Hatred is at least as likely to be constructive as love.

Most of the people who fought against oppression or invasions comes to mind.
[/QUOTE]

Hate does not impell, it impedes everything it touches. All the things you mentioned can, and are, being worked on without hate. Hate is destructive and always destroys anything that holds it. Take a look at history, the great haters all went down in their own ignorance, put down by their own actions. I can’t keep you from hating only you can do that for yourself. I will stick with Love. Love holds things together and builds upon them.

96

As a former teacher of fighting skills/martial arts (judo and jujutsu) I can state that this is false. The best frame of mind to approach a street fight is that of controlled rage. Part of training in hand-to-hand combat is learning to manage adrenaline, not to deny it.

Regards,
Shodan

97

[QUOTE=lekatt]
Take a look at history, the great haters all went down in their own ignorance, put down by their own actions.
[/QUOTE]
So how did Kim Il-Sung manage to live to the age of 82 and die of a heart attack? Sometimes evil, hateful people prosper without consequence.

98

[QUOTE=Fear Itself]
So how did Kim Il-Sung manage to live to the age of 82 and die of a heart attack? Sometimes evil, hateful people prosper without consequence.
[/QUOTE]

Who did he hate?

99

The United States and the West.

Regards,
Shodan

100

[QUOTE=Shodan]
As a former teacher of fighting skills/martial arts (judo and jujutsu) I can state that this is false. The best frame of mind to approach a street fight is that of controlled rage. Part of training in hand-to-hand combat is learning to manage adrenaline, not to deny it.

Regards,
Shodan
[/QUOTE]

I am talking about what the ancient masters taught. If there is such a thing as controlled rage, and I doubt it, the energy you use to control it would diminish the energy you could bring into the fight, which illustrates my point perfectly.

Looking it up in a dictionary I find no controlled rage. The masters taught mindfullness, respect, and self-confidence when confronted by an enemy.