originally posted by sirtonyh
With respect to singles, I don’t know of anyone who isn’t a pre-pubescent girl who buys singles. This makes the singles chart basically redundant as most people who have reached puberty would have a very different definition of what consitutes good music to these girls.
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I’ve seen this posted a number of times in this thread, and while it has some element of truth to it, it doesn’t entirely match up with my experiences in music retail.
I work at a major department store in the music section, and while we do sell many singles to the tween demographic, there is also a substantial amount being sold to older teens (more often girls) and surprisingly to women in their early 20s.
I’m not sure why singles seem to be bought more by the female section of the market.
Of course, this is all anecdotal, and should be taken with the grain of salt it deserves, but I don’t think it’s an entirely accurate statement to paint the charts as the domain of 12 year old girls. They aren’t the ones buying all the Linkin Park, Coldplay, Metallica or Eminem.
And as to your rant, Boo Boo Foo, there’s some quite important things said there, but an awful lot of it consists of you telling us how much you hate hip hop.
Eminem has talent. Black artists are still making good music (personally, I think Babyface is the best cure for insomnia that R&B has come up with in years), but they are no longer making it in a style you appreciate. It’s called growing old, mate.
If you take Pharrell Williams (or the Neptunes), Timbaland and Dr Dre, you’ve got a hit-making machine comparable to that of Motown. And I will not deny that each of these producers/writers have introduced the world to some shite. But they’ve also been responsible for some great music. Eminem, for instance, attracts your derision, yet he is considered a hugely talented rapper and is becoming more accomplished as a songwriter. He’s done some shit as well, but that is in spite of his talent.
And if you want a non-rapping black artists responsible for a great song, try Outkast’s Hey Ya. They are a hip hop group, but they don’t rap in this, and it’s a classic. This song is equal to the best of anything from any era of music.
It obviously helps if one’s computer is in an environment that allows for listening to a lot of music. If not, then what?
I still hope that someday, the Powers That Be will wake up and say, “you know, since 1969, TV has gone from three networks and PBS to hundreds of channels. Radio is still cooped up in the same tiny set of frequencies it was in then. Maybe it’s time to open up a whole bunch more frequencies to radio.”
What made the music of the 1960s great was that there was this huge alternative channel, FM radio, that the commercial stations weren’t trying to do anything with yet. It wasn’t that the music was any better; it was that the uncontrolled nature of FM created something much closer to a free market in music, so good stuff could find an audience - ultimately including a mass-market audience, for the better bands of that era. What we need now is a latter-day equivalent to the FM radio of the 1960s.
I think you are just out of your element. For those of us who have had the Internet as part of our lives since high school, downloading music is a very collective, dynamic way of listening to music.
For example, a few months ago, a few friends and I watched Monsoon Wedding. This sparked an interest in Indian pop music. We went straight to the record store after the show, but we had no way of knowing what albums of the the few they had would interest us.
However, when we got home we were downloading all kinds of great stuff, and finding out more about the artist we like and getting leads on other stuff we might like on the web. We spent the next couple months exchanging songs and videos when we’d find good ones. Nothing beats the excitment of sharing your new discovery with a friend. Many nights were spent gathered around the computer watching grainy rips of dance sequences from Bollywood.
For me, this was perfectly normal. But it dawned on me that ten years ago we’d have to spend a lot of time in musty import record shops hopeing to find an Indian record or two and being non-Hindi speakers with no ties to India, we’d have no real way to get ahold of the music magazines and the like that would guide us to new music in the genre. Unless we were really dedicated music geeks, we probably wouldn’t bother. And yet here we were, sharing music from the other side of the world without giving it a second thought. Amazing.
I’m scheduled to go to about seven shows in the next two months, all from bands that have been introduced to me by friends (and likely introduced to them by there friends) through a dynamic mix of instant messenging (and instant messenger file-transfering) and Kazaa. I’ve delved into whole genres that I probably would have only heard in passing. If file sharing does something, I guess it is that it makes music less etheral. You are no longer bound by whisps of stuff heard on the radio or borrowing whatever records your friend happens to have. You no longer have to hope you catch the name of something you hear and like. It’s all there. And it’s pretty damn wonderful.
I think this is how you find music anyway, by accidently coming across it. I’ve been into Savatage for around two years now. The only reason I even tried them was because they were in the metal section, something more music stores need to do.
I got my first Maiden album back in 92 only because it was on sale. Another chance buy.
You ever find a Edguy CD let me know cause I’ve been looking too.
For me it was the same, almost. I’ve been going to hardradio find all my new info. The people over there know their stuff, and they have new music to listen to. I learned of Armored Saint and Virgin Steele from there. Never would have heard of them otherwise. From there I got some Anthrax and other bands.
Exactly, none of the smaller bands that I can think of have said anything about downloading songs. Hell Maiden has outright said tape our songs and put them on the internet. They know they put out good music and that people will buy it if exposed to it.
I know how hard it is to get exposed to new music. I only knew one other guy in college, early 90s, who was into metal. I got some ideas off of him. I also learn what bands other people have been in, like Gary Moore in Thin Lizzy, or John Bush in both Armored Saint and Anthrax.
Now I do understand that many people don’t buy music and just download it, but I know there are plenty of others, me and Matt here, who DO buy music. I have 600+ CDs at home and I know that the people who are really into music have a lot more then that. The people at the RIAA need to get with it already.
Oh and Matt, Zack from Savatage has a new band called CircleIICircle. It’s supposed to be a good album but I haven’t found it yet.
Well, I don’t know if I should jump in here, but what the hell. (in case anyone wonders, I’m a forty-something black female who’s tastes run to pop.)
I’m not quite sure what you mean by “stereotypical R & B”. Are you talking about the lyrics, the melody, the hook? I love Alicia Keyes, Indie Arie, Mary J. Blige, and Maxwell, and can see myself listening to “Fallin’” for the next 20 years. Luther Vandross, IMO, has had an very typical career. Lots of people listen to him and are familiar with his songs, but he has never been a blockbuster on the Hot 100. And a primary factor in his last album doing so well, was frankly the idea that he might have died.
Beyond the British Invasion, has there ever really been a significant proportion of non-domestic artists on the Billboard Hot 100? Just considering the number of domestic acts (talented and overwise), I would think it would be an uphill battle even without the corporate tweaking. I was looking at another thread discussing how Bjork was the most influential pop musician of her generation and realized all I knew about her was an ugly swan dress. I listened to some of her samples on Amazon and knew I had no further interest in her songs or singers she might have influenced.
My current interest is Clay Aiken (yes, the product of a cheesy talent show who has a beautiful voice) and his single was the first that I have bought in years. Oddly enough, even though his sales are really respectable [11 nonconsecutive weeks #1 in sales in the U.S.], sales were the only reason he made Billboard’s Hot 100, because airplay was just about non-existant. My cohort and I (not Claymates, thank you very much) have learned more about the difficulties of getting songs played on monopolistic stations with moronic DJs. Unlike Edward The Head, our little group works more on word of mouth by internet, which is why I listen to Josh Grobain and others. We honestly feel that the U.S. record industry as it is now formulated has no interest in us, even though we will spend gobs of money on artists that we like.
Well, and the internet is good for that, too. There’s plenty of indie radio stations that have internet simulcasts that rock. I personally listen to WNUR’s simulcast quite a lot, and their rock show has music I would never have heard, even if I did wade through internet sites left and right. Plus there’s random stations across Europe I’ve come across I never would have found were it not for the Internet.
Because of the Internet, I’ve discovered bands such as Xiu Xiu, Stereo Total, Chicks on Speed, Solex, Nightmares on Wax, Dressy Bessy, Cub, Tiger Trap, Add (n) to x, Ms. John Soda, Turbonegro, etc, etc, etc. Pretty much all the music I listen to is due to surfing the Internet. Yes, it is a bit hit or miss, but if you find people who listen to music similar to you, then it’s a goldmine.
I had a nice response typed out last night, and then my computer froze. Bah. That’ll teach me not to overclock.
It hasn’t caught on with the masses yet, but what do you think about satellite radio? XM is 3% owned by Clear Channel, but Sirius has no ties to media conglomerates that I know of.
While your comments about the impersonal nature and “ghettoization” of radio are probably even more true of satellite, I’ve found Sirius much more listenable than FM. There are no commercials on their 60 music streams (only half of XM’s 70 streams are commercial-free) and there seems to be a lot more variety and less heavy rotation than FM. I’ve heard Lo Fidelity Allstars and Daft Punk on the same “alt rock” stream as The Strokes, Radiohead, The Sounds, Nirvana, and The Streets.
If you care to notice the same thing is happening in film, in books, in sports, in any endeavor in which there is artistic talent which can make money.
Think about the following words:
[ul]
[li]marketing tie in[/li][li]bottom line[/li][li]aftermarket[/li][li]demographic study[/li][li]movie rights[/li][/ul]
I’m sure you can think of more. Author’s today do not write a book without an agent thinking of a ‘series’; movies are made with the same idea. How many ‘original’ movies are made recently. To my way of thinking everything is ‘dumbed down’ to appeal to the ‘lowest common denominator’, i.e. whatever ell.
I’ve been struggling with this issue for years. My ears don’t like the vast majority of what’s played on mainstream radio, but I refuse to invest the kind of cash in various new music storage media that would allow me to listen to downloaded stuff wherever I happen to be when I want to listen to music.
I’m like even sven in some ways; I hear new music in film, through music festivals and small, out-of-the-way live shows in small local clubs, on college radio (locally, my fave station is Loyola U.’s station, WLUW 88.7 FM; they have a kickass Latin show on Sunday afternoons), at the Chicago Cultural Center and other local public and/or cheap venues like Grant Park or Ravinia, and often on the headphones in the International section at Borders. Plus I’m a member of the Old Town School of Folk Music (www.oldtownschool.org), which consistently picks some amazing local and international acts, but tickets there are a bit pricier at $15-20 for most shows.
I don’t like the idea of intellectual property theft involved in downloading new kinds of music without compensation to the artists, but current radio most of the time either bores me to tears or annoys the crap out of me. How the hell am I supposed to be exposed to more music that I will actually like, beyond what I’m already doing? At $15-20 and up for a CD, it’s awfully expensive to buy completely blind. Sometimes I’ll buy a compilation album and try a new genre or artist that way, but this is an expensive habit. The U.S. market gives us no exposure to 98% of what goes on in the world musically, and it pisses me off, but what are we supposed to do about it if the industry is ignoring our demographic?
**Boo Boo Foo, ** I understand your frustration, and believe me, it goes both ways. However much you like Coldplay, they are still awfully mainstream compared to what most of the world listens to when they’re not being overwhelmed by Ameripop. Cultural homogenization is painful to watch.
Look, with hindsight, I suspect I might have lost sight of the forest for the trees with that one. I’d like to think I have a pretty strong appreciation of hip hop actually - certainly I have more than a few Warren G and Lauren Hill records etc. Indeed, if there’s one thing I NEVER want to have happen, it’s to actually grow so old that I close my mind off to good music.
What I was alluding too primarily in the quote you highlighted gex gex was the ghettoisation of radio - and the fact that large sections of the record buying market place are effectively separated from other sections of the market place - based on things like demographic research etc. And it happens because the people who are in the business of maximising revenue choose to make it happen.
We’re very lucky down here - all I have to do is listen to Triple J for a week and I can hear absolutely everything that’s hip in the entire world - both here in Australia and overseas. What I was trying to get across is that I’m not sure our American friends are quite so lucky. I suspect the delineation between demographics are much forcefully applied, and there’s a direct flow on effect I find in terms of what gets pumped out of the USA as averse to what gets allowed back in.
I dunno - maybe all my lamenting is caused by the fact that I refuse to take ecstasy. I’m told that I’ll never listen to hip hop, or techno, or house, the same way ever again.
I’m not sure that is true. I love the old motown songs but Dr Dre in particular has been around about 20 years and has crafted some incredible music. Straight Outta Compton and The Chronic alone put him in the top tier of writer/producers imho
My Aussie slang sense is tingling. I’m assuming you don’t mean they beat an American singer to within an inch of his/her life on stage. (Although I could see the entertainment value in that in some instances.) That being said, from the context I can figure out what you’re saying, but in the interest of fighting ignorance, can you please clarify what you meant by “flog”. Thanks.
On, and on-topicish, I agree with most of what else you said. It’s just I can’t get the image of pop culture mixed with BDSM out of my head now.
Oh gee, Geshtal - I’m honoured! You’re the second long term lurker who’s come out of the mists to visit this thread.
In answer to your question, to use the word “flog” in the colloquial way that I did, well it means that you’re trying to sell something which is a bit dodgy, or perhaps, it’s legit but you yourself are a bit dodgy. I guess the closest American slang I can come up with is if you had a stolen TV and you were tyring to “palm it off” to someone.
Also, you can use the word “flog” as a replacement for the word “Steal” - as in, “where’d you get the TV?”
“Oh my brother flogged it from the neighbours next door”.
Hope that helps.
In short, the word flog is a bit of low esteem word. You can flog something FROM someone, and you can also flog something TO someone. Either way, it’s used as slang to imply there’s a bit of dodginess involved somewhere.
This is certainly interesting reading and I don’t really know what I can add to this except that I have definately found my music tastes broadened by movies, friends and yes downloading music. There are some amazing bands out there and considering how little money I have to buy music I don’t like ‘going in blind’ and buying a cd that I will never listen to again (I have done so before and I have a bunch of CD’s that I bought merely for one song and have never listened to again after once or twice).
Some stuff is so hard to get up here in Canadiana too, and I know where all the indie stores are locally. I bought a Savatage cd and had to wait almost a year to get it because they don’t ship up here that often. I have to special order the cd’s and wait for them to be sent to me. (It’s Streets: A Rock Opera btw for those curious) I’m going to have to go searching for the SouthFM cd and I’ll be lucky to find it. Despite it being a new release. But when I find a band I truly like, I will buy their cd’s in support of them because I’ll know that I like most of their stuff.
It really depends what sort of techno you listen to. There are a bunch of different DJ’s out there that are really good and I find Happy Hardcore is one of the best. It’s multiple DJ’s and I have numerous songs that I would almost kill to find the CD’s to buy them but it’s insanely hard to (and I used to have connections with the scene with people lamenting they could never find certain cd’s… usually the ones I really liked)
I will admit it is different when on ecstacy (I tried it once, it was an experience that I won’t forget but I’m not going to duplicate again) but if you are in the right frame of mind for it you don’t need the drugs. I do have one cd of Happy Hardcore that before my discman got stolen I would listen to every morning on my way to school to give me extra energy because it just seemed to wake me up and give me a general good vibe feeling. You just need to find the right dj’s.
A good place to start (for example) can be Scooter, and one good song is 99 Red Balloons…
lets people get back to this fascinating discussion
OK, the “growing old” comment may have been a little uncalled for. Especially cause it’s untrue. I know plenty of people my age who don’t listen to anything made after 1970, and Johnny Cash was apparently still into modern music until the day he died.
Absolutely. We can definitely agree on that.
Actually I think narrowcasting - or ghettoisation, as you call it - is what will save the music industry. If a radio station is trying to cover everything, it can only cover a small amount of what’s out there - and that tends to be be what appeals to the lowest common denominator. Narrowcasting allows music to be heard that wouldn’t get an audience on radio trying to appeal to a wider audience.
I agree that we are lucky to have Triple J, but I think that Triple J is as much a curse as it is a blessing. I mean, don’t get me wrong, Triple J is a great thing, and if the government ever killed it off the local music scene would probably die overnight.
But music radio in Australia tends to fall under three categories: rock, pop and Triple J. Or, as Shane Homan says in his chapter Popular Music in The Media And Communications In Australia (2002, Allen & Unwin, eds Stuart Cunningham and Graeme Turner), quoting a 1996 ABA report:
Later in that chapter, he argues:
The problem with Triple J is that if you’re a young Australian band and you don’t get airplay on Triple J, you’re pretty much dead. Community and college radio isn’t anywhere near as strong here as it is in the U.S., meaning that Triple J has a virtual monopoly on breaking new talent.
And Triple J doesn’t play everything. There are heaps of great bands, both local and foreign that don’t get played on Triple J.
I’d like to see more radio licenses made available. If there were, we’d have more players in the game and they’d be more willing to narrowcast. We’d hear a greater variety of music and unknown bands would have a better opportunity at making it to the top.
There is an incredible lack of variety in Australian radio. As you note in the OP, hip-hop is one of the most popular forms of music around, but how many hip hop stations are there in the country? If I could get my hands on a radio license, I’d start a hip hop station, and not only would I make a mint, the local scene would benefit hugely as well. Kids would tune in because they love hip hop and I’d have to play a heap of local hip hop due to content laws and everybody would win. The same applies to other genres that aren’t getting the exposure because there are too few radio licenses around to promote narrowcasting.
The U.S. has the opposite problem. They have narrowcasting and stronger college/community radio, but they don’t have a Triple J (it’s amazing to think what a properly funded American Triple J could do) and their ownership is so limited (ClearChannel owns 60% of the stations in the country) that it kills any diversity narrowcasting would provide.
I think we need a half way point to take advantage of both systems’ stengths.
Maybe so, but I can tell you that I’ve never taken E and I love all those genres.
OF, the problem that you are going to run into is that a lot of these songs on HH mixes are not, and never were, available on CD in their original form. You gotta get 'em on vinyl. And most of the time, you gotta get 'em from the UK, since that’s where HH came from. Unless you, being a Canadian, have a hookup with Anabolic Frolic, that is.
Anyway, there are a couple of sites out there that you can order UK vinyl from, one of them being bangingtunes.com. I know there are some other HH sites out there, but can’t rememeber what they are.
Also, keep in mind that many of the songs you like were pressed once, and never done again. So, there may be 1000 copies of a particular piece of music in it’s original form. You just ain’t gonna find it for sale.
BTW, if you like HH, you might be willing to sidle sideways into some Super Eurobeat music (http://cavex.avexnet.or.jp/index.jsp) <–Warning: Site in Japanese. It has the same upbeat feeling and super-quick tempo.
