I’m not sure how I feel about this. I don’t think anyone following this even tangentially thought that we were ever going to get out when Obama said we would but I also didn’t really anticipate another 10 year plus commitment. Of course realistically, that’s probably what’s going to be required.
I would have put this in GD but I’m not really interested in debating the point, however feel free to move it if it is more appropriate to put it there.
Yep, this mess will NEVER end. We will always be there. That’ the downside of being world cop-while China makes money extracting resources, we pay the bills.
Sounds like a good deal to me!
:rolleyes: I should have qualified the statement as “We’ve kept troops in other countries even after the wars there ended and even after the Cold War due to having a good reason”, which is true considering the Afghans want American military advisors and having a small force allows us to keep an eye on the forces of Islamist reaction.
Totally with you on this, and pfui to bobkitty’s unexplained objection. Obviously, bobkitty is completely ignorant of world politics and the way the military works.
(Or else that’s a stupid and empty charge that has no meaning in this thread. Do you know where Afghanistan is on a map, and what a Regiment is? Then you do have some knowledge of world politics and how the military works. We really don’t need Der Trihs’s level of exaggeration here.)
Anyway, 7,000 troops? Big whoop. We have four times that many in Okinawa, and I do not know how many in Germany. (Almost wrote “West Germany.” Force of long habit!)
This isn’t GD; I don’t have to support any charge I make. I stand by my assertion that if you genuinely do not see the difference between the troops that are in Germany and the ones that would remain in Afghanistan, you’re not paying attention. Most importantly, the folks I know stationed in Okinawa and Germany and Korea have their families with them. They live and work on actual permanent installations, with amenities and the ability to not only walk off the installation without fear of being blown up, but can actually live out there if they like. Do you really see something like that occurring in Afghanistan in the next ten years? Of course not. So we’re looking at the continuation of year long deployments on an already taxed military- one which, I might point out, is in the process of a drawdown. Which means the potential for multiple deployments, more separations from families, and more wounded and killed. Service Members typically don’t come back from Germany with life-altering PTSD, but they sure as hell do from Afghanistan- and our current system is WOEFULLY inadequate in their care for these men and women. Ten more years won’t help.
It’s not “the same thing” – and no one said it was. It’s similar in a political sense. It’s leaving troops behind after the war is over. It’s difficult to explain or justify, and will become much more so the longer the troops remain there. It feels like the betrayal of a promise. Worse, it feels like a “tripwire force,” existing as an excuse for the war to be escalated again. “Advisers” in Viet Nam.
If w’ere going to prop up the country’s leader, we ought to leave enough troops to do the job right. If we’re going to get out, we ought to get the hell out and leave the place to its evil and ugly fate. Seven thousand troops is too little for the one, and far too many for the other.
And, while you don’t have to support any charges or claims you make, simply declaring, “You know nothing” is of no value to anyone. It’s an insult that doesn’t convey any information to others who may be reading. It doesn’t fight ignorance to spit, “You’re ignorant.”
Should I petition to move this into GD? Because one question that comes to mind is whether or not the whole thing was a bait and switch. What I mean is, it had to be obvious from the outset that this was going to be the “endgame.” IOW either the US would pull out and the Taliban or some other anti-Western/US faction would gradually assert their influence and the central govt would collapse as it did after the Soviet pull out or, the US would have to maintain some sort of commitment on the ground.
Just how long will Karzai last? he doesn’t seem particularly popular.
My guess is that there will be a coup (military led, perhaps), and Hamid will retire to the South of France. the parallels with Vietnam are pretty strong…and the scenario is the same-the US thinks it can "build"a nation-where one never existed.
I didn’t really expect anything. I’m mostly a passive spectator. When I first heard the announcement about the 2014 w/drawal though I thought it was bullshit. Not bullshit in the sense of being a deliberate ploy though, just that it was wildly and hopelessly optimistic.
However I wouldn’t exclude the possibility of it being just a ploy to keep the political heat off so that this bargain could be negotiated in an atmosphere of relative calm - which honestly, was probably for the best. I think that’s how one needs to handle such diplomatic endeavors. And the fact of the matter is that sometimes we do need to be lied to, especially in matters of state. It sucks, but that’s reality.
It seems to me that part of the reason is simply the size of the military budget. If we withdrew all the troops from Afghanistan, it would be reasonable to suggest that some of the military budget be repurposed for something useful. (Sorry, my bias is showing.) But omg Support Our Troops!
Plus, it’s harder to say “we lost another war” if we haven’t quite finished.
Perhaps we can reduce it to a couple of bases once we get involved in a new conflict somewhere.
This can’t be a surprise. Has the US completely left any of the places we’ve fought in the past 70 years? A war is an excuse to build a permanent base, which requires troops to maintain. Back in 2002, I asked a military officer friend how he thought we would get out of Afghanistan and Iraq. He was certain we would never leave and that was, in his opinion, a good thing. He used Korea as an example of success that should be repeated in other countries.
My personal theory is, generals and politicians like to travel the world and always have good lodging, a club and a golf course close by, no matter how primitive the location. Bases let them do that.
Next time someone suggests getting involved in a war, maybe people will consider that we will undoubtedly be occupying that place for the next 50 years at taxpayer expense, not to mention the dead and the wounded we will have to take care of for the rest of their lives. Or maybe I’m a starry eyed optimist.
There is no bait and switch. Let me explain why in a roundabout way.
When Obama was elected, he announced that he was sending thousands more troops to Afghanistan. There were quite a few liberals who support withdrawal from Afghanistan got upset, even though it was part of Obama’s platform to send more troops to Afghanistan. He gave speeches about it, yet some people still felt betrayed because they didn’t actually listen to what Obama was saying.
This is a similar situation here. Obama never promised a complete withdrawal of troops from Afghanistan in 2014. If you think he did, you’re wrong, because he never said such a thing. Here is part of what he said on June 2, 2011:
Thanks for that clarification. I have to wonder though if that’s the popular conception and also how well this new agreement will be received. Personally I think 7-10k is a de minimus commitment on the part of US especially if there is UN involvement but honestly, I haven’t really paid much attention to the specifics.
My main concern is what it might mean for the mid-term elections. Obama doesn’t need any more dings to his reputation right now if the Dems are to make any progress in 2014 and that’s the only way I can see that the current gridlock will be broken.
I think the economy is going to continue to recover regardless of what happens in DC but I would like to see a robust recovery rather the anemic weak sauce we are currently dealing with.
Actually, the new agreement is threatening to fall apart because of new demands by Karzai. The agreement has been endorsed by the Afghan loya jurga, but Karzai is threatening not to sign it. If he doesn’t, all US troops come home, not just the combat troops.