I see “people” at Clinton events. Lots of them. And lots of them are voting for her. So, even though Clinton has “establishment” support, she also has more popular support. There is no divide between the two in this election. How is that giving us the finger?
There are a few ways to approach this. I’m not actually in any “Bernie camp”, I’m not a strong Bernie supporter. I think he’s the most good person running in the race right now, the most sincere, and the only one who would genuinely put the interest of the country first before their own interest. And I think it’s interesting to have an actual slightly-leftists run after we’ve been hearing for a decade about how so and so is the most liberal candidate ever and they’re a super communist!
Imagine, for a moment, that the Republicans ran a black candidate who wasn’t progressive on racial issues, but rather, was dead average for a republican. Do you still think 90% of blacks vote for democrats? If not, then why are those people voting against their own interests just because the guy is black?
Voting on name recognition and a cultural meme that props up that name is about as well informed. It may very well be that by supporting Clinton, they’re voting against their own interest, since Bernie is much more focused on issues of economic inequality that underlie most of the social issues facing blacks, and Bernie is more aggressive in persuing police reform that would stop disproportionately targeting blacks. But I suspect that blacks will overwhelmingly vote for Clinton, just as they would overwhelmingly vote for any black candidate.
So my statements weren’t a “nyah nyah, stupid clinton supporters, stupid blacks” but more frustration - that despite Sanders being a candidate that was much more aligned with their interest, the name recognition and cultural memes dominated their voting. It’s tragic, really, if the people he would’ve helped the most were the least supportive of him.
I asked people for an alternative explanation, but the best anyone could come up with is “Hillary Clinton had some PR talks with black people where she asked them what they wanted”
What percentage of black people have watched this PR stunts in which Hillary has asked black people what they wanted? What percentage of them made this informed decision strictly based off how this little meeting went?
It’s not as if her policies actually changed as a result of any such meetings, they’re just stunts.
And if black people overwhelmingly vote against their own interests due to PR stunts, then they very well are low information, unmotivated voters with bad judgment.
Really, the subtlety of asking vs telling, in some meeting that was watched by under 5% of the black population, is an extremely minor factor compared to the cultural meme that Clintons are good for black people (whether justified or not) and name recognition.
Sure it’s possible. I’ve heard nothing to really convince me that this is so. There has been no public condemnation by the party for these vocal assholes. Even McCain did that to the woman who called Obama a muslim. Here, crickets.
Absolutely. See Alan Keyes and Herman Cain.
Yes, it’s implying it’s just dumb kids that support Bernie. It’s used almost interchanably among the same people as “BernieBots”, it’s meant to be disparaging.
It’s rather straightforward. Those people who stay home or vote Green party don’t think voting for Hillary is a continuation of their rally for change. They think they lost this battle.
Can you identify any we can condemn? I’m ready to do so.
You’re saying “If you support one candidate, because you are able to find value in his policies/integrity/honesty/competance, then you must support this other completely different candidate with different policies/integrity/honesty/competance, because otherwise you’re just being a petty child”
Bernie and Hillary aren’t the same person. They’re very different people, actually. Why does feeling that Bernie would make a good president mean you’re obligated to also think Hillary would be a good president and vote for her?
Not all the independents got to vote for Bernie. Don’t mistake the party for the people.
Of course the they’re going to be following the winner. What argument do you have? It is obvious that the Democratic establishment has done everything possible to take the decision out of the hands of the people, and now they are gloating because they have succeeded. If you want the country to be controlled by a political machine then you are in luck because we are rapidly heading down that road.
I don’t think all Sanders supporters are being called “Bernie Bros” by most people. Someone who supports Sanders, and argues why he would be a good choice, and has issues with Clinton and expresses them reasonably is just a reasonable Sanders supporter. Someone who hijacks other conversations to talk about Bernie, or uses sexist rhetoric to insult Clinton, or harasses and insults superdelegates about voting for Sanders instead of Clinton, I think those people are who are being called Bernie Bros.
I don’t know if I’d call Sanders as being soft on the democratic party. He’s accused the party of attacking his campaign, he’s called the party ideologically bankrupt, and made it sound like a terrible and corrupt thing when George Clooney hosted a fundraiser for Clinton where most of the money went to down ticket races. If I knew nothing about the Democratic party except for what Sanders says about it, I would think they were terrible and that it might be better to let Trump win.
Of course most voters aren’t that low of information, so I don’t know if Sanders is going to drive many people away from the party, but I’m not sure how many he’s bringing in either.
If you think Bernie would make a good president, then you would probably believe Cruz or Trump would be a disaster and Clinton would be at least “acceptable.”
Absolutely the vast majority of black voters would still vote for the Democratic candidate, I’m quite sure. I’m pretty sure this has happened multiple times before (not at the Presidential level, but at state and local levels) – black Republicans lose the black vote overwhelmingly to white Democrats.
You believe that Bernie is better on these issues, but that doesn’t mean that it’s a fact. I trust that most black voters are as well informed as most white voters, and I see no evidence to the contrary.
Says you. I don’t accept that this is necessarily the case, and neither did most black Democrats. If you can’t accept that it’s possible that you’re wrong on this, then I suppose you’ll never accept that black voters might be just as informed as you are. But it is indeed possible – black voters, in general, may have actually looked at the issues and positions and decided that Clinton better represented their interests.
That’s probably part of it. Other possibilities are different emphases they placed on issues like law enforcement bias and institutional racism. I have the impression that Bernie believes that institutional racism is not nearly as major a factor as class economic inequality in terms of poorer outcomes for black people, while Hillary believes it’s as significant or more so. There are other small differences that may have lead to the overwhelming support for Hillary Clinton.
Maybe. Or maybe you think the biggest problem in our country is that our politicians are owned by a plutocratic oligarchy and we have no real influence on our politicians, in which case the unexpected rise of Donald Trump is actually appealing as the only guy left standing who isn’t beholden to such interests. You assume the only thing that appeals to people about Bernie are some political issues on a checklist, but that’s a simplistic way of looking at it.
Or maybe you simply can’t, in good conscience, cast your vote for someone who you feel would be a bad president.
Cain is a not a valid example, he didn’t run in a campaign that gave black voters a chance to switch parties. Do you have polling data showing Keyes’ share of the black vote in Maryland? I assume you know who he ran against for the Illinois senate seat.
From talking to black people, I get the impression that most of them saw this or heard about it.
Says you. That’s not a factual statement, just an opinion.
This is your opinion, but this is an insulting opinion that drips with disdain.
So those 5% didn’t talk to other black voters? Black voters don’t talk to each other and have discussions about these things? Black voters can’t be informed and have different opinions about the politicians than you?
This is why your post is hypocritical, in my opinion – you drip with disdain and insulting language about black Democrats, while complaining about the insults and disdain coming from some Hillary supporters for Bernie supporters.
The only difference is that you think your insults and disdain are justified. Forgive me for being skeptical.
In fact, it was during Bill Clinton’s presidency that D.C. pundits first began complaining about a thing they called “purity.” This was code for any politician who stood too much on principle. The American Prospect in 1995 derisively described it as an “unwillingness to share the burden of morally ambiguous compromise.” Sometimes you had to budge a little for the sake of progress.
- Jann describes this in the context of saluting the value of “incremental politics” and solutions that “stand a chance of working.” The implication is that even when young people believe in the right things, they often don’t realize what it takes to get things done.
*But I think they do understand. Young people have repudiated the campaign of Hillary Clinton in overwhelming and historic fashion, with Bernie Sanders winning under-30 voters by consistently absurd margins, as high as 80 to 85 percent in many states. He has done less well with young African-American voters, but even there he’s seen some gains as time has gone on. And the energy coming from the pre-middle-aged has little to do with an inability to appreciate political reality.
Instead, the millions of young voters that are rejecting Hillary’s campaign this year are making a carefully reasoned, even reluctant calculation about the limits of the insider politics both she and her husband have represented.
For young voters, the foundational issues of our age have been the Iraq invasion, the financial crisis, free trade, mass incarceration, domestic surveillance, police brutality, debt and income inequality, among others.
And to one degree or another, the modern Democratic Party, often including Hillary Clinton personally, has been on the wrong side of virtually all of these issues.
*…
*Matt Taibbi *— *Why Young People Are Right About Hillary Clinton
25 March 2016
Right here: Democrat Barbara Mikulski got 88% of the black vote, Republican Alan Keyes got 12%.
So how can you declare that “the people” supported Bernie? Sounds like a data-free assertion, especially considering that she had more people vote for her.
I’ll admit, I laughed at the typo. “Very beast” indeed.
Like Penguin, I’m no Millennial. I was born in the 60s. And I wish to God there had been another Democrat or three that had been willing to join the race this year. But since O’Malley fizzled, and Bernie’s an actual liberal, that’s who I gave my support to.
I’m sure I’ll end up voting for Clinton, gritting my teeth that we don’t have a better candidate. The Dems have managed to nominate their worst, most unlikeable candidate in the field because any reasonable Democrats were afraid to run against her. But luckily for us, the GOP is about to nominate their even worse, even more unlikeable candidate, so she should have a pretty good shot.
But I resent like hell the sense of superiority and entitlement from many Clinton supports, and even more so the derision of Bernie supporters as ‘Bernie Bros’ or immature voters. I’ve been voting for president since 1988, goddammit, and I have a good enough grasp on presidential politics to know what a president can or can’t do. I know Bernie couldn’t deliver on his major goals. But we could have used someone who would try, not someone who represents a step backward in progressivism from Obama and will get even less cooperation than he did.
Democrats should be sweeping up this election, but we’re doing our damnest to make sure people throw up their hands and stay home.