Nothing in either of my posts was intended as an insult.
I believe that the ability to do basic arithmetic operations is integral to being an educated adult. If an otherwise intelligent, well-educated adult is incapable of performing these functions, IMHO they should a) see a professional to determine if there is some organic reason for the difficulty or b) do some thinking on why
this particular skill presents a difficulty.
I apologize if my manner has offended you.
However, I’ll not agree that math is unimportant. Neither will I congratulate the OP’er for her percieved inability to do math. My purpose was to suggest to Suo that she may not, in fact, suffer from such an inability. Perhaps my method was not gentle enough for the timid denizens of the SDMB, after all, here in the Pit we expect a certain level of sensitivity, after all.
I absolutely agree. Have I tried to teach anyone math? Nope.
Suo said, essentially, “I can’t do X and people think I’m stupid. Yet I can do Y, Z, A, B and C which require as much or more mental ability than X, so clearly I’m not stupid.”
I’m saying, “Hey, you can do Y, Z, A, B and C, yet you can’t do X? You should see a doctor, or think about what it is in your background that caused that, because X is important.”
So we all see your point, Frank. You’ve not offended me, but when I read this:
after reading this:
When the OP clearly stated that she tried and tried to learn math, but was unsuccessful and sick of people getting on her case about it, I’m confused as to where you’re coming from. I’m not going to go into this AGAIN, and I’ll submit that if you don’t think you’re calling her a liar in the above quote, I’ll stand corrected. Perhaps my reading comprehension skills need some honing, but I don’t think so. If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck…
Hey Suo Na, just make sure you always keep fresh batteries around or use a solar powered calculator.
So who cares if you can’t do math. Obviously your mind doesn’t work in a mathematical way, otherwise you probably wouldn’t be able to transpose music after only hearing it a few times. Be happy with what you can do, and if math causes you so much stress, then just leave it the hell alone.
Well, it is called dyscalcula, and it is recognized as one of the more common learning disabilities. It has nothing to do with general intelligence or any unwillingness to learn. Re your point that Sua should see a doctor- if she is interested in getting the diagnosis confirmed and having a label to apply to the condition, fine. If she is not interested, so what? Sua has found a career where math skills are not required; she has said that calculators suffice for any other math needs she encounters- so where’s the necessity for anything further at this point.
Here’s my deal with multiplication/division etc. I don’t know the tables, sue me. I have a calculator and it works great. I understand the consepts, I’m fantastic with consepts, but I am bad a memorization, especially if I know its useless. I refuse to memorize tables that are commonly available once I understand what’s going on. Ergo, I can do calculus (sometimes) but am worse at multiplication than my littlest sister (and she’s no shining star at it either) and its doing me no harm.
Its not a worthless skill, or even a total waste of mental space, but if its not damaging me in a Chemical Engineering major, its not a life threatening problem.
First of all, let me state one disclaimer: Suo Na and I are married. Thus, I may not be the most impartial of observers. I resisted posting to this thread for a while, partly for that reason and partly because Zette and OpalCat have been doing a great job of presenting my position for me. But Frankd6 has said some things that I feel the need to respond to, and which haven’t been addressed to my satisfaction.
First of all:
I love math, and I appreciate the role of math in society as much as anyone. I personally feel that math holds the same exalted place amongst the sciences as philosophy and poetry.
But we don’t expect educated people to be able to quote Plato or compose sonnets to somehow validate their status. Maybe once upon a time that was true, but it isn’t today. And I think the same holds true of arithmetic. Standards change, particularly with the introduction of new tools.
Don’t get me wrong: I think you should teach your kids arithmetic, just as I think people should be exposed to Plato and poetry and all of the other liberal arts. (Yes, I am lumping math in with the liberal arts, but that’s a topic for another thread.) But dammit, Suo Na did take arithmetic in school, and she passed. If she wants to use a calculator from now on, why not?
Okay, this is just excessive. Breaking a leg is a reason to see a doctor. Having bipolar disorder is a reason to see a doctor. But seeing a doctor because you’re bad at mental arithmetic is both wasteful and foolish.
And as for part (b): Suo Na and a lot of other people have already given it a great deal of thought. Those people include on one hand her father and every other busybody who felt a need to “fix” her supposed problems, and on the other hand very helpful people like the teachers at Sylvan Learning Centers. Not only has all of that thought failed to magically “cure” her, but the repeated attempts cause her a great deal of anguish, not to mention the blows to her self-esteem. Maybe, just maybe, the best solution at this point is to leave well-enough alone.
Nor will I agree that Plato is unimportant…but see above.
No one’s asking you to. All Suo Na is asking anyone to do is: first, just accept that not everyone is good at arithmetic; second, stop treating people who aren’t good at arithmetic like some kind of idiot; and third (and possibly most important), stop taking it upon yourself to fix people’s supposed deficiencies without being asked. A lack of arithmetic skill isn’t hurting anyone, least of all Suo Na.
Dammit, I’m not a good Pit poster…I’ll stop now before this gets bumped to GD.
Of course I do. But the processes that give me no trouble have to do with language and music. Give me anything to do with words or notes and I have no problems. I used to set my study notes to music, in order to remember them better.
There are these things called numbers…
That applies to cooking (if I bake, I have to refer to the recipe three or four times, and recite the amount in my head as I move to the other side of the kitchen; the rest of the time I don’t measure at all) and to my phone number, which takes a few seconds to dredge up.
I can approximate quantities, but don’t ask me for any kind of exact answer.
Hey, Stylus
All my calculators are solar-powered, except Math Geek.
I try, but for some reason these people keep trying to teach me things…
First, let me say that I agree with you, Math Geek (and, of course, Suo Na). I would, however, like to expand on this. Very frequently, a number of Dopers jump all over someone’s case who exhibits a similar problem with spelling. They will tell you that being able to spell is tantamount to intelligent thought. Yet, spelling, like arithmetic is but a skill. Some people ‘get it,’ some don’t. It doesn’t make such a person any less intelligent, nor does possessing these skills make one any more intelligent.
Suo Na, honestly, I have no greivance with you. Obviously, it’s no big deal if you can’t do math – that’s what we have calculators for.
But this is a board dedicated to… what was it again? At this point I’m sorely tempted to dive headlong into the realm of sarcasm, but I’m not gonna.
I can certainly appreciate your anger at being condescended to or laughed at. I have tried to make abundantly clear that this was not my purpose. My simple point was that you are obviously capable of mastering skills similar to simple mathematics. Your inability to do math may not be due to an oddity in your biological makeup, but rather caused by a rude teacher. Perhaps you were scared by a CPA while in your mother’s womb.
Obviously I differ with many other posters over the importance of arithmetic skill. I’m a spelling and grammar asshole, too. So shoot me.
I haven’t been able to communicate my point without being caustic or offensive. This is often a problem for me. Sorry.
Here’s my simple point: Don’t give up. If you can be a technical writer and transpose music in your head, you can probably learn long division. It would probably make you feel good to do it. It’s worth doing. You might be stuck on a desert island with 94 potatoes and 27 people and have to decide how many everybody gets. Hey, it could happen.
To Suo Na:
I am wondering, are your difficulties in math only related to computation, or do you also have a hard time with the conceptual side? I wonder because my girlfriend has been tested for learning disabilities, and her results stated that she is dyslexic only with numbers and symbols, such as the variables in algebra equations.
As a math major, you can imagine that it is hard to talk about my favorite thoughts with her. But I’ve found that she can handle very advanced math, if the nature of the procedure is explained to her. For example, she learned the basic principles of the calculus from a single session of a class she attended with me.
I wonder about the nature of your difficulty for this reason: If you have a hard time with computation, but not with the basic understanding of the principles of math, then it would be silly to attack you on a lack of understanding.
As background, I’ve been a math tutor for several years. One of my discoveries is that while I can guide many students toward a conceptual understanding, I haven’t yet made one iota of difference in a student’s computational skill. I have also discovered that nagging someone over a lack of computational skill when concept mastery is present tends to make the student more than disinclined to math, but actively resistant. For the record, I rank mental arithmetic geeks right up there with the guys who hassle me for putting a presposition at the end of a sentence while we’re talking over a few beers. Lemme know when someone makes you king because you know the cube root of 3 offhand.
To summarize my ramblings:
If you understand the reasoning behind math but can’t add, then you’re way ahead of the curve. I’ve met folks with degrees in math that can’t explain why it works to a nonspecialist.
Suo Na, you use a calculator? You lazy ne’er-do-well. You’re just like those people who insist on using glasses because they can’t be fucked to put in the effort to focus their eyes. The eyes are lenses, right? They’re focused by conscious manipulation of the muscles, right? You can lift your arm by conscious manipulation of your muscles, and even type, so if you find yourself unable to focus your eyes, maybe it’s time you do some soul-searching. Don’t even get me started on people with perfectly good vocal chords who insist on singing off-key.
It seems to me that any moderately educated adult would wish to possess in his or her arsenal the qualities of tact and empathy. Looks to me like you don’t want to invest the effort into acknowledging experience other than your own, and avoiding arrogant patronization. That’s your choice–just be honest about it.
Which is very good, because we might be tempted to respond in kind. If you are truly interested in combatting ignorance, you could try to do a little research on the subject of dyscalcula, rather than just put forth your armchair musings as somehow sufficient evidence to contradict the findings of psychologists, neurologists and educators who have devoted a great deal of study to the subject.
Bull pucky.
Personally, I hate math. I understand the concepts just fine, I just hate the process. I’d rather pull weeds in 115 degree heat than do math. And you know what? I’m 28 years old, I haven’t taken math since high school, and I’m FINE with it. I use a calculator when I need to (hey, there’s one built right into my computer) and I delegate any other math related stuff to my math-enabled husband. I would gain nothing by putting myself through the paces of learning to be better at math. It would simply be torturing myself for no good reason. Life is too short for that.
Believe it or not, not every single skill is absolutely neccessary for every single human to possess. I get a lot of satisfaction from designing web pages… I’d be a pretty lame person if I said that YOU needed to become adept and comfortable with HTML code, javascript, and perl though. Even though in my opinion, it would make you feel good to do it, and it’s worth doing. I also love to draw, and I draw pretty well. If someone can’t draw as well as me, should I tell them they need to get with the program and learn, because it’s so rewarding?
Math is simply NOT as important as you seem to think it is (for individuals to know. Obviously in the grand scheme of things, math is important, but that is what people who like math are for). Sure there are some professions where it is called into play more… and you know what? People who don’t like math don’t generally go into those.
If she doesn’t like math, DOING MORE MATH WILL NOT MAKE HER FEEL GOOD. What WILL make her feel good is having patronizing buttwads STOP telling her how to do math by hand that she is perfectly capable of doing with a calculator.
coming from a different angle, I had to struggle at languages. I really sucked at languages. I just cant grasp them.
But I loved math. I’m pretty quick when it comes to math. I never really pushed myself at it, but I was well able to do what I wanted with it.
[aside to math geek]
speaking of the role of math in society, have you seen Pi, by Darren Aronovsky? well worth a watch, if even a little macarbre.
[/aside]
