The whole point of your existence is not to teach me math!

The BBQ Pit
1

In Stupid stuff you once didn’t know I posted this:

This is the reply I got. It doesn’t matter who said it here, because it’s an attitude I get far too often anyway, and it’s the attitude I’m Pitting, not (mostly) the Doper.

Did you not notice that I included paper and pencil solutions? My trouble lies in that I can’t fucking remember how to do the problems. I can’t remember how to carry numbers, I can’t even set up the simplest of problems. It has nothing to do with my technique, and everything to do with my memory.

Look, buddy. I use a calculator because I have no other alternatives. What if you said to someone, “I can’t write you a letter, because my handwriting is illegible. I’ll have to type it.” And the person responded, “But typing’s not good enough. Everyone has to know how to write. It’s necessary for life. You should start practicing; stop typing and start writing. Here’s what you do…” Would you like that? Probably not. You’d probably say, “Fuck that, I don’t need to write because I have a computer, and it’s faster to type anyway.”
And you know what? I didn’t ask for your fucking help. Did you really think I’d do your stupid little problem? I don’t care how to do it. It took me a long time to not care.

Do you know how insulting it is to me when you to just jump in and say, “it’s easy”? It’s not easy for me. I once dreamed of a career as a geneticist. If being able to do math was as easy as practicing, I wouldn’t be a technical writer right now. I’d be curing genetic diseases.

The smiley doesn’t make it any less insulting.

For my entire elementary education I wasn’t allowed to use a calculator. It didn’t help any, I still got C’s.

Then in high school my father started getting on my case about math; don’t think I haven’t heard it all before. My dad’s an engineer, and I’m sure all the while I was doing my homework he was wondering how he managed to engender such a math-illiterate (read: stupid) child.

Between him, all the engineers and accountants I’ve dated, and my six friends with math degrees, four of whom are pursuing PhD’s, I’ve heard all the tricks. I’ve read books on improving one’s mental arithmetic. But no matter how hard I practice, as soon as I stop practicing I don’t remember the tricks anymore.

And I’m not going to practice every day when the most complicated calculation I do any given week is multiplying my Nethack character’s experience level by 400 to find out how much to pay the priest. I can do that with one of the five calculators around my house, a lot faster than if I did it in my head or on paper.

I’m sick of the attitude that arithmetic matters. There’s a hell of a lot of things that I can do that most people can’t. I can transpose a piece of music just from listening to it a few times. So why does the world think I’m stupid because I can’t add without using my fingers?

Fuck you all and your condescending attitudes.

That’s probably the longest post I’ve ever written. I’m going to bed now.

2

Every time someone tries to explain math to you, mentally picture yourself stabbing them in the chest three times.

2 people x 3 stab marks = 6
4 people x 3 stab marks = 12

Voila - that’s math!

3

If Farmer Joe can plow seventeen acres of land in four days with a horse, and fifteen acres of land in six days with a mule, how much wood can a woodchuck chuck if they both leave the station at precisely fourteen gallons of whiskey in an hour and forty-five minutes with a 17 degree median angle on the broad side of a barn?

4

Depends. Exactly how broad is this barn?

5

Wow, did someone wake up on the wrong side of grouchy today!

First I am called on the carpet in http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?postid=903092#post903092 for my stupid sig, now some poor shmo is lambasted for trying to be helpful with her math deficiency. I think Sou Na needs to relax a bit and lighten up. Sheesh.

6

Is the woodchuck European or African? Laden or unladen?

7

fish.

8

fish.

is it just me, Sue, or do you seem to be looking for a fight with Particlewill? If you do, call him out straight, in a logical, and thurough debate. Nitpicking turns real petty real quick.

9

FWIW, it was quasar who tried to help Suo Na in the linked thread. For some reason, this seems to have hit a nerve.

particlewill had nothing to do with this problem, so I don’t think it’s fair to say that Suo Na is trying to pick a fight with him.

10

true, but I dont think that Particlewill’s response did much to clear it up.

the answer is still fish, though.

11

FWIW, Suo Na,

I’ve had a lot of math. 15 hours of Calculus, 9 of statistics, 11 of differential equations, 3 of integral transforms, 3 of advanced matrix theory, and 3 of computer-applied numerical methods. And as an engineer I use math every single day.

And if I wanted to multiply “47 times 14”, I would grab my calculator also. Why? Because I have great trouble visualizing and doing associative and transitive operations in my head. I could do it on paper, or on calculator, or in FORTRAN or C, but in my head? Ehh. I’d rather use a calculator, and not beat myself up over having to use it. At 32 and after all the math I’ve had and used, if I haven’t learned how to do it in my head by now, I’m not likely to anytime soon.

A client made a wise-ass comment to me once, when I took out my calculator to do some simple math during a test burn performance test. He said “You’re one of the smartest people I know, why are you using a calculator?” To which I responded, “Because I want to give you the correct answer.”

12

Suo Na, I also suck at math.

13

How else does your memory deficiency manifest itself, Suo? Do you have problems remembering other repititive techniques? Can you remember recipes, for instance? How to change a tire? Or, is it only simply math that you have trouble remembering? If so, why is that? What makes math any different from anything else you have to remember?

I’m sorry, the selective memory problem is just a little suspect to me. If one of my kids handed me this excuse for problems in math class, I’d be highly dubious. I might follow up with a physician if I thought it was more than a copout.

I know that I’m inviting your highly offended and incensed flames with this response. It just seems odd to me that an obviously intelligent and capable person could literally be unable to learn simple math. Looks to me like you don’t want to invest the effort into learning math. That’s your choice – just be honest about it.

14
  1. Hard to believe nobody else remembered that.
15

You know, she could very well have a particular learning disability or mental block- that hardly transfers into a lack of effort. She’s already stated that she’s tried her best and was unsuccessful. Suggesting that she is a liar about how much effort she put forth seems a bit harsh.

Have you never had a subject that you simply could not do? Perhaps not, but others do. I think the entire point of the OP is that she would like the benefit of the doubt that she has tried everyone’s “sure tricks” and still was unsuccessful, and now she’d like to hang it up and stop beating herself up over it. I think she has the right for people not to try to “fix” her if she is already too frustrated to try anymore.

I don’t think it’s “willful ignorance”, but I personally believe that if you have enough frustration and aggrivation with a particular subject, the result can be an unconcious resistance to learning that subject. It hasn’t happened to you (obviously), but it happened to Suo. That doesn’t make her lazy or stupid.

Zette

16

YES! YES! YES! YES!

Insert “doctor” for “engineer” and add a mother who majored in econ, and a brother who was a math major, and you have this mathematical troika that has never once failed to make me feel like an absolute dumbass for not doing well in math. Forget the fact they couldn’t construct a coherent sentence, paint ANYTHING, appreciate something without it having a dollar sign before it, or be able to think in a philosophical sense, they can do math, dammit! And that’s all that matters. Daughter can’t pick up differential calculus? Moron. Basic decimal multiplication a problem? Idiot. Can’t calculate an 8.75% sales tax of something priced at $45.32 in her head? Retard.

And they wonder why I never ever speak to them. This is a very timely subject, for I have a calc exam today. Hooray.

17

Zette:

Don’t think I ever used the words “willful ignorance”, “liar” or “lack of effort.”

Here’s another way to look at it. In my view, basic arithmatic is a necessary skill. If one of my children (or someone else I cared about) told me they COULD NOT do multiplication or division I would be very concerned (assuming they are of sound mind, as Suo very obviously is). I would want to investigate further.

I would assume that there are two possibilities causing the math disability: either an actual learning disability or a psychological “math block”. Both can be treated. Since I want my children to be well educated, I would investigate treatment options. I would have them tested – have you been? I would do what I can to help fix the situation, because I believe the ability to do basic is math is a material part of being an educated adult.

Many people suffer from “math phobia”. My point for Suo is that (s)he regularly uses processes easily as complex as multiplication and division. Therefore, there’s nothing inherent in these processes that prevent you from remembering them. Is it important enough to you to invest the mental effort and introspection into determining why these processes cause you problems when similar one do not? You’ve answered “No.” That’s your decision to make, and you’ve made it, whether consciously or unconsciously.

Please note that I have called no one stupid, lazy or a liar. Obviously this is an emotional issue for you. Maybe there’s a connection.

18

Well, Frank I guess I incorrectly interpreted this:

You didn’t need to use those words- the ones you used did just fine. If you weren’t implying that she was lying or lazy, what were you trying to say? Perhaps some clarification is in order.

You can backpeddle all you want by making references to what you would do if this “excuse” was given by your child, but the fact remains that Sue is NOT your child. She is an adult who has clearly struggled with this issue, as well as struggled with people who think she is stupid and lazy for not being able to do math. I suggest you think twice before posting more insults to someone who is clearly saying she has never been, and will likely never be able to do this particular function. The fact that you have no problem with it or that you would not accept this “excuse” from you kids is not relevent to her situation. (and that IS your word, not mine)

Why not re-read her OP? The point is that this IS an emotional issue for her- she has a problem, she tried unsuccessfully to solve it. She was disdained for it by her father and had to change her possible career. You just figured out that there may be a connection? Wow.

Zette

PS- I apologize for the easily misinterpreted use of quotes in my prior post. I was not trying to attribute the use of the phrases “willfull ignorance”, “fix”, or “sure tricks” to Frank. I will try to be clearer in the future.

19

Oh, by the way- for anyone who wants to read about some very interesting brain issues, check out Oliver Sacks “The Man Who Mistook His Wife For A Hat”, or “An Anthropoligist on Mars”. There are volumes of examples of people who have incredible capabilities in most respects, but are deficient in one or more seemingly simple aspects of life. It makes for interesting reading, and may shed some light on how the brain works.

Zette
(In my prior post, I called Suo Sue. Sorry 'bout that)

20

Ok Frank… but so what? If I say “I can’t do math” it is NOT an invitation for someone to come try to teach it to me, and I would be irritated at someone for doing it, too. It’s patronizing, if nothing else. There is no shame in using a calculator, the OP doesn’t need to learn this anymore.