How is this not completely disgusting? I didn’t watch that show. Is Howard a racist character akin to Archie Bunker?
Maybe it’s more well known now but I don’t think it’s less offensive. It’s not like non-Jewish women are reclaiming the word like was done with queer.
I endorse all parts of this post.
– you know, that’s a point. I focused on the “lying” part of it, which seems pretty accurate; but I strongly recommend a non-sexist insult to go with it.
I never realized non Jewish women were a race!
That should be moderated as well. Gendered insults, and bitch specifically, have been moderated in posts many times.
I haven’t seen that yet. Derogatory, sure; that’s been claimed, and I see no reason to argue with it; racist, though?
Interesting take on something I never said.
Bigoted would have been a better word to use but this side discussion is not really relevant.
I disagree. The thread’s entire purpose is backhandedly accusing SDMB modding of racism (see thread title), but with zero racism in sight.
I agree that it is a derogatory term (meaning literally “abomination”). However, it is also true that many Jews (and others) aren’t aware of the literal meaning and use it in (what they think is) a non-derogatory way, including to refer to their own loved ones. In the context of someone using it in an obviously affectionate and non-racist way, I agree that “gentle mod note” would have been the best way to go.
Well, not precisely, but sort of yes - Howard was initially portrayed as a sleazebag with regard to women, someone who was just looking for any successful angle he could find to manipulate them into sleeping with him. Then his character genuinely fell in love and he outgrew his immature attitudes. (Or I guess that’s what the writers intended to portray. The show wasn’t very good after a while - I watched it up to the very last episode, but especially as time went by it seemed that the writers were willing to sacrifice character consistency for the sake of wrapping up a plot in a single episode, or worse yet for a single joke.)
I just did my own research. They had a Jewish character say that? Every woman that I have romantically loved isn’t Jewish. If someone described me that way I would never speak to them again.
Edit: Just saw Carol’s post. The fact that they had a sleazy character say that specifically argues that the term is a slur.
Yeah, that usage is pretty misogynistic and gross, no doubt. I don’t watch the show beyond the five minutes I needed to realize it was nails-on-chalkboard for me, so I can’t speak to the character.
But in the same quote, we have Drew Barrymore, Christine Benvenuto, and the author of Boy Vey! self-describing as shiksas, which sounds akin to “reclaiming” the word – except that the dynamic is very different when it’s members of the dominant group reclaiming a word used by a non-dominant group.
It seems pretty complicated, and not unambiguously a slur in all usages.
There’s a bit of an analogy to “bitch,” a word that is ambiguously a slur. If I call someone a lying bitch, it’s a slur. If I admiringly describe my wife in her battles with family trauma as “one tough bitch,” it’s much less of a slur; and if my wife describes herself that way, it’s not a slur at all. I wouldn’t use the term to describe someone else, not even admiringly, because of the slur connotations.
Complicated.
As @CairoCarol notes: the character of Howard was, in the early seasons, an unrepentant, sleazy horndog. He also was the stereotype of the Jewish mama’s boy who still lives at home with (and simultaneously worships and loathes) his mother, and seemed to be ambivalent about his Jewish heritage.
FWIW, Chuck Lorre, the show’s creator and showrunner, is Jewish.
This is interesting, and has real resonance with the linked article’s discussion of Phillip Roth and his use of the word.
The usage didn’t bother me. I found it a bit sweet.
— Baal Houtham (old, white, male, protestant-background atheist)
You seem to be struggling mightily to find offense where clearly none was intended, and pertaining to a word that has absolutely nothing to do with being of Indian origin.
I could argue. But, if other posters find the word offensive, I’ll stop using it. I’m still confused by the OP’s claim that it is ‘racist’ though.
Now personally as one of the mods, that had nothing to do with this decision, I find the title of the thread pretty insulting. I’m being slammed as part of a group. Not for anything I did or didn’t do.
On the subject of the thread itself, I honestly never would have consider shiksa offensive by itself. It can be derogatory but often isn’t in the NYC Metro area at least. Probably the most Jewish place in America.
I’m not Jewish, but my wife is. It really has nothing at all to do with Indians, it most often is used referring to a non-Jewish Northern European Woman, especially if Blonde. But that is regional I guess.
I assume the word is Yiddish. I’ll Google it and check. Yes, Yiddish and a term for non-Jewish woman or girl.
Interesting:
It appears opinion on it varies a lot. Probably by region mostly.
The word “racism” has generalized to mean “identity-based bigotry”, rather than the original more specific meaning of “race-based bigotry”. It’s a common type of evolution of connotation in English.
Which does not square with,
The complaint is that this is specifically anti-Indian racism.