I grew up in the South. Saying somebody was from Connecticut (and hence a ‘damn Yankee’) was most definitely marking them as a member of a despised out-group. Different groups, different behaviors.
Remind me again about the historical persecution of people from Connecticut.
Remind me of the historical persecution of non-Jews. Or are you forgetting that this thread is about a Jewish word for non-Jews being used by a Jewish person? Or are you somehow saying that it is antisemitic to not be offended by a Jewish person using a Jewish slur for non-Jews?
Not for the non-Jew who’s married into a family which is calling her that. For such people, it can have a very large bite.
(If that particular family genuinely means it neutrally or even affectionately, of course, then it probably doesn’t bite. But there are people who mean it to bite.)
That’s why it’s a lot less drastic than some other terms. But that doesn’t mean it can’t still be a slur, or that it should be in ordinary use on these particular boards.
So, to summarize:
We (the moderators) should discourage the use of the word “shiksa”. Because it’s a mild pejorative, and many people don’t even know it’s pejorative, that discouragement should start in the form of mild mod notes when we notice it being used. It is similar to many other words whose use might be okay in some situations, but some will find the use offensive, and “do you really need to pick that word?”
Is that a fair summary? Any objections? If not, I’m going to ask @engineer_comp_geek to close the thread. (after waiting a bit for objections.)
I personally was not at all familiar with the word “shiksa” before this thread. Based on the comments here, it seems to me that it’s in the same category as the word “gypped”. Even if people use it in a non-offensive manner, it’s still something that should get a mild mod note indicating that it’s best not to use it on a public message board. I don’t think it is offensive enough to deserve a warning in most cases though.
So basically I agree with @puzzlegal. But like I said I wasn’t even familiar with the word prior to this discussion so I am open to corrections and further discussion if needed.
I agreed with Aspenglow’s note earlier in which they suggested that exact technique, so yes, I agree that’s probably the best idea going forward. And to end the thread which keeps blowing up.
Here is a transcript for the Sienfeld episode that introduced the term to the world at large
Looks OK to me – with the addition that I hope the mods are also noticing the reaction to “Jewess” and to “kike”.
Interesting–I notice there is a Moonlighting episode using the term several years before Seinfeld:
It’s definitely not a mild pejorative in certain common contexts although it was mild in the example that spurred the OP.
Correct.
I think the contexts where it is harsher are all contexts where it’s Jews talking to Jews, with no outsiders except perhaps the target of the word present. Which doesn’t really apply to this message board.
nvm xxxx
What if a Jewish person is talking about their impending marriage to a Catholic woman and someone tells them, “don’t marry that shiksa. Stay in the faith.”?
I think that one would be a pretty clear use of it as a direct insult, and fall under the “don’t be a jerk” overriding rule. We have mods, and they can, believe it or not, read context (although they, as they have admitted in this and other threads, occasionally need it to be drawn to their attention).
I would have moderated that before this discussion. That’s clearly rude and bigoted.
I personally don’t consider it offensive, but understand if others do. If the ruling here is that it crosses a line, I’ll certainly abide by it on SDMB.
This question about the offensiveness of the word shiksa has come up on this message board a few times. I don’t feel like there was any real consensus, but perhaps it’s best to use caution.
I don’t get how the OP thinks use of the term “shiksa” by a lone poster makes the entire board complicit in racism.
I’ve seen a bunch of Seinfeld episodes and don’t remember the shiksalicious line, or however it was phrased. Southerners like me brought up in Christian households are taught that Jews are evil for not worshipping Christ, yet they need to be protected by Christians. “Shiksa” would largely get “what’s that?” responses.
Actually, it was used several years before that (although intentionally wrong) in the Woody Allen movie Sleepers. There’s a scene where they’re trying to jumpstart Woody’s memories, so they’re “creating” a typical dinner. At the end the “father” says “Shut up and eat your shiksa.”
This is not a direct response to you, but was prompted by your comment, which I’ll take as an opportunity to re-iterate and perhaps clarify my position on this, for what little that’s worth.
“Caution” implies taking precautions to make sure that bad things don’t happen. I don’t see that here. I’ve made my views on this word clear, but others seem to feel differently, and if so, then so be it. But again, I think that “shiksa” is a word whose putatively insulting impact has been diluted by years of use as a light-hearted comedic device, mainly by Jewish standup comedians and writers and sometimes by TV sitcoms. Sometimes a word just does not mean today what it meant in a previous century.
We’ve had a number of debates here in ATMB about effectively (if not formally) banning words deemed possibly “offensive”, and the prevailing opinion was often that such use should at least be “discouraged” – which always makes me think, “another one bites the dust” – another word we effectively can’t use, on a board that prides itself on being sophisticated, open-minded, and sometimes creatively humourous.
Look, I’m genuinely glad to see this board aspire to standards of respect for all and to intelligent discourse, but sometimes these de facto prohibitions remind me of a project I worked on for a super-conservative organization where one of our team members had a rubber chicken in his cubicle hanging from a rope, and one of the employees complained to HR that she found it “offensive”. The point being, yes, “offense” is subjective, yes we should be respectful if people take genuine offense at something, because genuine offense can be in the eye of the beholder, but FFS, sometimes the eye of the beholder is utterly devoid of humour and completely intolerant of innocent humour in others.