Ok, I feel this is a legit GQ. If it’s not Manny, I’m EXTREMELY sorry, and I hope this doesn’t cause you too much work/stress.
Ok, when Spock died in Star Trek 2: Wrath of Khan, they played “Amazing Grace” on the bagpipes at his funeral. Now, I know next to nothing about Star Trek, I’m a casual fan. My BF is a bit more knowledgable than I, but he didn’t know the answer either.
My question: WHY did they play that song? I’ve always operated under the assumption that the whole advanced society is pretty much w/o religion. Furthermore, since Spock’s exsistance is based on logic, religion and faith would have no part of it. So, why play Amazing Grace at his funeral? Just because they had to play something? Or am I just making too much out of this?
Several possibilities:
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I don’t think Kirk and Co. asked Spock while he was dying “Say, Spock, what do you want played at your funeral??”
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The movie producers wanted to make it clear that the scene was a funeral. They therefore chose a tune that would cause the audience to be sure that it was, indeed, a funeral.
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Tradition. It may be a naval tradition (such as the earth-style ranks) that carried over to Starfleet.
My bet is on #2.
Zev Steinhardt
Here’s another weird thing I noticed in Star Trek movies - in #4, we find out that sugar makes Vulcans drunk - Spock eats just a little and later he is swimming with the whale.
In a later one (#5?) Spock is seen eating marshmallows, yet seems perfectly sober. Sugar free marshmallows???
It’s pretty well known that Roddenberry’s vision of the future didn’t include religion, and very little mention of religion is made in the Star Trek oeuvre, with the exception of DS9, and one brief mention of something like Christianity in TOS.
It’s also true that modern Vulcan culture is based on logic, but there is a strain of mysticism – Spock’s resurrection at the end of ST3 is the result of a mystical rite.
That being said, I can’t see any compelling internal logic behind the choice of music. My suspicion is that it was chosen for the benefit of 20th Century audiences; Amazing Grace on the bagpipe is often played at funerals, especially those of law enforcement officers killed in the line of duty. Spock sort of fits into that category.
Isn’t “Amazing Grace” the only song that can be played with bagpipes? Or, is it the only song that Scotty can play?
Part of the problem, akin to what zev mentioned, is relying on the audience to presume that there may have been a more appropriate song written in the 400 years since Amazing Grace, but we wouldn’t know that song. They had to play something the audience was familiar with.
Because the 2nd choice was The little lonely piccolo, by Zeffram Cockoran & The Creature in F sharp, but that would have left movie goers a little less moved.
Funerals are more for the living than the dead. You’d think that the best thing to do at a funeral would be to cheer people up by playing 12th Street Rag, but no. People want to hear slow, solemn tunes; music to drown their sorrows in. I suspect that Amazing Grace just somehow made it into the 20-somthing[sup]th[/sup] century, by which time it lost whatever religious associations it has today in the 20th century.
Yes, it’s still the 20th century.
Interestingly, Bones says in criticism of the Genesis machine in Wrath of Kahn, “…a popular myth held that the Earth was created in 7 days. Only now we can do it in 7 hours…” (my emphasis and sorry for the paraphrasing).
Badtz Maru wrote:
Are you referring to the scene at the aquarium? If so, I think you’re a bit offbase. Spock swam with Gracie so he could mind-meld with her, a procedure which requires physical contact.
Actually, in the movie Star Trek IV, we don’t find out anything about Vulcans getting drunk. In the novel of the movie, it says that sugar makes Vulcans drunk.
Wrath sed
I forgot about this quote- but it does say something about how religion is perceived in the 23rd century (and who is perceiving it). The actual quote goes, “according to myth…,” which says something either about Bones’ Judeo-Christian mindset or Roddenberry’s. I’d say since the latter would clearly influence the former, and since this was very casually mentioned and not contested by anyone else in the scene (Spock for instance), I’d say Roddenberry just assumed this was the myth of creation. I don’t imagine o’ Gene cared too much about the religious aspects of the funeral ceremony, I’d even say he probably didn’t even notice. The guy had developed a future in which religion took almost not part, except to show the antiquity of a culture (the Vulcans, the Bajorans on DS9 someone mentioned).
Wrath sed
quote:
Interestingly, Bones says in criticism of the Genesis machine in Wrath of Kahn,
"...a popular myth held that the Earth was created in 7 days. Only now we can do it
in 7 hours..." (my emphasis and sorry for the paraphrasing).
I like that scene because Bones is freaking out, and Spock looks decidingly unconcerned.
Ok, thank you everybody for your answers. Little details like that bother the hell out of me, but
makes the most sense to me. That’s pretty much what I thought it was anyway.
Ricksummon, are you SURE about that? I could have sworn the scene with Spock eating the candy they bought so they could get change for the bus, and the one later where he explains why he was acting like that were in the movie.
Have you guys read The Nitpicker’s Guide to Star Trek by Phil Ferrand? It’s loaded with stuff like this. He’s got several books for the series’, movies, etc.
I’ve seen the movie a few times (on video) and I’m pretty sure I haven’t seen such a scene. Kirk says “What does he mean, ‘exact change’?” but they didn’t explain how they got the change. I happen to remember that scene well, because ironically whoever did the Japanese subtitles also didn’t know the term “exact change” and had translated it incorrectly.
MonkeyMan,
You make interesting, and I believe true, points about Roddenberry’s concepts of religion and the Trek characters’ lack thereof. That is in general though, as Rodddenberry had next-to-nothing to do with The Wrath of Khan, having been bumped off the productions of the movies because of the disastrous first film which he mainly took the brunt of the blame for. As a “consultant,” he may have had input into Bones’ “myth” line, but from what I have heard it was a glorified title, and Harve Bennett, the new prodcer, and Nicholas Meyer, the director, gave very little attention to anything he had to say.
Sir
Rodenberry was definitely a nonbeliever. In fact, one of his rejected scripts for an early Star Trek movie had the following quote from a Vulcan Crewman:
“If this is your God, he’s not very impressive. He has so many psychological problems; he’s so insecure. He demands worship every seven days. He goes out and creates faulty humans and then blames them for his own mistakes. He’s a pretty poor excuse for a Supreme Being.”
The movie was to be called The God Thing, and was rejected by Paramount in 1975.
David B- “The God Thing”! Please tell me you’re joking.
I’ll agree that Rodenberry was a nonbeliever (or in any case a lukewarm believer), but he certainly didn’t reject scripts solely on the basis of religious content. Star Trek V deals with none other than God Himself, Who for some reason lives in the center of the galaxy. I saw the movie when it first came out (I was 9) and even then I thought they were dealing with the subject amateurishly. I don’t know who wrote the script or what he or she thought passed as theological musing, but the argument “what does God need with a spaceship?” hardly satisfied me.
Sir Rhosis- You’re right that Roddenberry’s hand in the actual production of Wrath of Khan, but he did create a vision of the future in which religion plays almost no part (wow, that’s almost word for word what I said before. I should get some sleep, I’m repeating myself).
I just looked it up. Bill Shatner wrote # 5 - that explains a lot.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by scr4 *
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I also remember this movie well, it’s one of my favorites for the Star Trek oeuvre. In the book, Kirk and Spock need exact change, and go to a shop to get it. They are told that they can’t have change, they need to buy something. So they buy some mints or something, which get Spock “drunk.”
In the movie, they get one the bus, get right back off again ("What does it mean, ‘exact change?’), and then right after that they are one the bus again.
As for the OP, I think it is the second opinion. However, one doesn’t have to be religious to enjoy the beauty of the song, and maybe that’s why Scott played it. Mr. Grey wants it played at his funeral, and he thinks he’s going to Valhalla. 