I’m going to address this comment by itself as I’ve been thinking about this myself. Why do we tend to assume that Zimmerman’s most virulent defenders are racists?
All I can do is address how I feel about all this. Are you necessarily a racist if you’ve studied what is known about this case and decided that George Zimmerman shot Trayvon Martin in self-defense? No. Of course not. What makes me suspect you are a racist is a fundamental inability or unwillingness to understand why others have concluded that the killing was racially motivated. What makes me suspicious is the number of people who a story about that said, “A white [sic] guy called the police about a black guy who was just walking down the street, was told that he shouldn’t follow him but did it anyways, and was later found to have shot and killed the unarmed black man” and not first think that this is racist, and, yes, get a little upset about it. if you did further research and found your assumptions were unwarranted, then I don’t have a problem with you.
If, on the other hand, you saw all that, and are more upset that some people have come to the conclusion that this was racially motivated or that Zimmerman did not shoot Martin in self-defense, rather than the potential racism involved and the fact that someone might have gotten away with a racially motivated killing with help from a police department, then, yeah, I have a hard time thinking that you are not motivated by racism.
Add in accepting blatantly racist photos purporting to be Martin, acting as if they should matter at all even if they were, and I become even more sure. Also throw in using it take a swipe at liberals, indicating that you think politics is more important than racism, and I believe it is up to you to prove to me that you are not racist.
I mean, while I personally don’t like guns, I interpret the Second Amendment the way most conservatives do, and think that people have the right to carry a gun to defend themselves. And I grew up in one of the most white cities in the country–we’ve had black people run out of town as recently as the year 2000. If I can understand why people are upset over this, without resorting to making up crap, then any non-racist person can.
And I’ll add an addendum for hoopified specifiically:
If you really were just waiting for the facts to come in, it wouldn’t upset you so much that other people have already made up their minds. That you’ve only shown yourself as upset at the people who have decided that Trayvon was not the guilty party and Zimmerman was tells me which side you’ve picked. You anger is much more inline with someone who is upset people believe differently than him than that of someone exasperated by ignorance.
If you would just come out and admit this and offer an actual argument why Martin is guilty and Zimmerman is not, then I wouldn’t think poorly of you at all, even if I disputed your arguments. And if you’ve done so before and I just didn’t see it, I apologize for my negative feelings towards you.
BigT has hit on the thing that’s bugging me about this whole thing.
This is being set up as “loud angry blacks forming a lynch mob, thinking irrationally” against “calm, reasonable, objective, law-respecting people just waiting for all the facts.” But really, everyone has taken sides. It’s just that some are more vocal and less ashamed of this than others.
Presumption of innocence is the standard for the justice system. But not for regular people just chewing the fat. If I walk out of a store with a TV that I didn’t pay for, no one will say, “Hey! Just wait for all the facts! There may be some information here that we didn’t know!” No, people will assume I’m a thief and then wait for something compelling to sway them from this assumption (maybe I have Alzheimer’s and I simply forgot to pay for my purchase.) And I don’t see anything wrong with this. People aren’t robots who can suspend judgement with the hit of a switch. It is our tendency to draw a conclusion based on what we know. I’m annoyed that there are some people frontin’ like this is reactionary and evil. Especially when I know they do the exact same thing whenever they feel like it.
We have a lot of facts that have rolled in since I started that thread in IMHO. And still people keep saying we should wait for all the facts. I will remember these words the next time another controversial case comes up that pushes their hot buttons.
this is going to be like the iraq war debates back in 2004. right now there’s a lot of (kind of) clear evidence to support wrongdoing on zim’s part and collusion by the police. the (apparent) majority of people see this and are appalled, but there’s this small faction of naysayers who want to argue (like hoop). just like the iraq war supporters back in 04, these people will not be around to hear “i told you so” in a few months when the whole truth comes out.
interesting. so the pics that characterize Trayvon as any sort of hoodlum are “truth” and serve some purpose, but any pics that might change perceptions (negatively) of Zimmerman are dismissed with a “didn’t see/don’t care.”
they’re right about you: you aren’t waiting for any truth or facts. you’ve made up your mind just the same.
you want to talk about polarizing bullshit–all this twitpic nonsense that Trayvon was gansta serves literally not a single purpose. what is the point, even? WTGGF does it matter if he had tattoos, or looks more like a man or had “slurs” in his usernames?
does any of that make his death more justified? it’s character assassination. nothing more. and you seem to be supporting it.
People just marry themselves to a narrative based on their prejudice, and on the left there seemed to be a pent up desire to push certain agendas, and this was just the right story at the right time.
For instance just last year an 11 year old hispanic girl was raped by a huge mob of mostly african american boys
Now why did that not spark accusations that all of black america were clearly racist against hispanics? Or that black people had a problematic culture that condoned rape etc… You just have certain trouble makers trying to use incidents like these, so far the hispanic community has nothing close to what the black community has with the al sharptons and such.
I didn’t marry myself to a narrative from the start of this story, been bitten too many times by stories that turn out differently as more information comes out, its almost like clockwork these days, whether its phoebe prince, or mike daisey…
The folks that pick a side aren’t dealing with this like its a case where facts are investigated to reach a truth, they are in it for the politics, and in that you win by shouting other people down pretty much.
The real story is how folks like al sharpton need to stir the racial pot to cause the racial tension that keeps themselves relevant. Its their sick little game.
what do you do with the fact zimmerman’s family and friends have been interviewed and insist that “young black males” were committing crimes in the neighborhood and that zimmerman was on the look out for such young black males…? and when he found one out on a walk, he said, quote: “these assholes always get away” before chasing one down, accosting and shooting him?
it’s easy to say WE are making it about race, but zimmerman’s supporters not admit but INSIST he was profiling and had a good reason to. if trayvon was a white kid, i highly doubt he’d have raised suspicion.
what do you do with this…? it sure seems like being black was reason for zimmerman to involve himself from the start…
he wasn’t caught committing a crime. he was simply walking “in a suspicious way…while being black.”
Bingo. Liberals are capable of being outraged that someone could be murdered for walking through a neighborhood while being black. Conservatives are not.
. Adtually, the only pictures I’ve seen of Martin portray him as a nice kid. I haven’t see anything to betray that analysis. But then, I don’t put much stock in what these kinds of photos tell me.
Of course. You can glean so much from a message board.
How could you possibly know this?
I never said he was. I have no idea if he was or not. Honestly, I don’t even know how that would impact this incident.
IT doesn’t matter if either one had tattoos. It would matter if either one used racial slurs. At least it would matter to me as that goes to some predisposition that might be relevant.
None of that does. But is that all there is?
You don’t seem to have a problem with character assassination, you’ve dismissed everything I’ve written with the tired old canard, “when you say this ‘…’, you really mean this ‘…’”
.so I’m a racist because I don’t leap to conclusions that make me feeeeel good and are so condescendingly trendy. Okay.
I see. So your position is to NOT be a racist is to claim racism at the first opportunity. Strange world you live in.
, Strangely, I don’t have any assumptions. And that makes me worse.
And your approval is most important. See, that’s where this crap comes from. You want others approval and you desire the same from them. I don’t. I couldn’t care less what you think of me.
Ah, the old “potential racism.” Now it doesn’t even have to be actual racism, as long as the potential is there then zm should be convicted.
Well, you do seem to find racists around every corner.
Except that racism and bigotry is almost always found among liberals. The most incidious kind, anyway. YOU’VE made it political, not me.
I know I am going to get hammered for this but it needs to be said, What if it actually happened the way Zimmerman said it did ie rash of robberies in area, on his way home sees someone who matches description of said robbers, follows said person(against orders of dispatcher), said person disappears, person appears and assaults Zimmerman, Zimmerman shoots. You can put whatever labels you want on anyone involved but there is no crime here. I do not know that this scenario is true and this is why we should wait til the FACTS come in. Yes there are racists and bigots they happen to come in all colors and stripes, welcome to reality. It doesn’t help when you cry wolf every single time. That said I am very sorry that a kid got shot over this stupid incident, never should have happened, but it did and because of the publicity we are going to know what happened, the real question we all should ask is how do we keep it from happening again. Any useful thoughts
How is it not about criminality. If you thug yourself out you will get the wrong kind of attention. As said many times before, even jesse jackson had to admit if someone followed him down a dark alley and it was a black guy he would be more scared. The reason trayvon got looked at is because a whole lot of trayvons before him had indeed committed crimes. If zimmerman had seen a young white or black girl walking with a bag of skittles his reaction would be quite different, but why wouldn’t it. Its like saying a granny has the same likelyhood of committing a burglary as a 17 year old black boy…at some point we have to stop kidding ourselves over what is reality.
Well we know it is different because Zimmerman never called 911 to report anyone without cause who was not black. He did call to report the existence of black people around his house several times though.
Also why is not appropriate to point out when they are being bigoted, are you arguing that because people are racist we should just accept it?
Most criminals are right handed, should the Travon family have admitted that, had Travon opened his ice tea with his left hand should Zimmerman have walked away?
Does this acceptance of current bigoted views justify people being mad that the mother showed a picture of him the way she preferred to see him?