The ZPG Zealot handshake thread party extravaganza

[Captain_Amazing]

@Snowboarder_Bo

I don’t wear myself out either but I don’t really see a reason not to tell someone when a “belief” of theirs is completely silly, stupid or irrational either, if I feel the situation warrants it. I’m not even bothered by ZPG Zealot’s lunacy (it impacts my life in a less-than-trivial way, after all), but your reply doesn’t at all back up what you first said and what I asked about. You NEVER tell someone that their finding offense is stupid or silly or irrational? NEVER? No matter what the situation or the offense? :dubious:

Not a stranger, at least. What’s the point?

[wonky]

@Captain_Amazing

Not a stranger, at least. What’s the point?

The same point as what you are doing right now. You are communicating that you think someone is behaving irrationally.

[Chimera]

My only real problem with ZPG Zealot’s position is the word ‘rape’. It is pretty much in the top 3 crimes in the West (Murder, Pedophilia, Rape) and to so casually throw out the word in the context of a mere offered handshake is inexcusably hyperbolic and threatening. At the wrong time, place or situation, it could result in legal charges, even temporarily, as well as loss of reputation and lawsuits.

At some point she’s going to get fired and/or sued to the ends of the Earth for harming someone’s reputation over it.

[wonky]

@Chimera

My only real problem with ZPG Zealot’s position is the word ‘rape’. It is pretty much in the top 3 crimes in the West (Murder, Pedophilia, Rape) and to so casually throw out the word in the context of a mere offered handshake is inexcusably hyperbolic and threatening. At the wrong time, place or situation, it could result in legal charges, even temporarily, as well as loss of reputation and lawsuits.

At some point she’s going to get fired and/or sued to the ends of the Earth for harming someone’s reputation over it.

I have a problem with saying that virtually all men in the US and countries with similar handshake traditions are rapists or attempted rapists, and virtually all women are whores, victims of rape, rape enablers, and traitors to their gender. It’s extraordinarily hateful stuff, both misogynistic and misandrist, and her claims to feminism via this idiosyncratic slut shaming are laughable.

[Snowboarder_Bo]

@Captain_Amazing

Not a stranger, at least. What’s the point?

So then, I’m a friend?

@jsgoddess

The same point as what you are doing right now. You are communicating that you think someone is behaving irrationally.

Hush; you’ll ruin my build-up!

[Chimera]

@jsgoddess

I have a problem with saying that virtually all men in the US and countries with similar handshake traditions are rapists or attempted rapists, and virtually all women are whores, victims of rape, rape enablers, and traitors to their gender. It’s extraordinarily hateful stuff, both misogynistic and misandrist, and her claims to feminism via this idiosyncratic slut shaming are laughable.

Ok, that too. It’s a harmful position.

[Lasciel]

@Chimera

(snipped) At the wrong time, place or situation, it could result in legal charges, even temporarily, as well as loss of reputation and lawsuits.

At some point she’s going to get fired and/or sued to the ends of the Earth for harming someone’s reputation over it.

This is presuming that she actually pulls this bullshit in meatspace in her professional life, which we have no way of verifying. Much more likely is that her posting here is some deluded ‘internet tough guy’ stance and she either shakes hands like all us other sluts, or politely demurs with no real explanation like any other person in a professional setting is perfectly able to do.

Most acquaintances in real life don’t ever have the depth of conversation that posting allows here to really air out complex batshittery. If she started in on it as part of casual lunch or workplace chatting, most people would do the ‘nod and smile at the crazy person and then disengage and don’t associate with in future’ routine.

[TokyoBayer]

@Lasciel

This is presuming that she actually pulls this bullshit in meatspace in her professional life, which we have no way of verifying. Much more likely is that her posting here is some deluded ‘internet tough guy’ stance and she either shakes hands like all us other sluts, or politely demurs with no real explanation like any other person in a professional setting is perfectly able to do.

And also presuming that she is a she and actually believes the shit she posts. Neither of which would I bet serious money on either way.

If it were simply the refusing to shake hands with all of the accompanying garbage, I would be more likely to believe it, but the whole thing about infanticide just seems too far over the top.

Troll? ‘internet tough guy’? Crazy?

Does it really matter?

[Captain_Amazing]

@Snowboarder_Bo

So then, I’m a friend?

Fine, do whatever the fuck you want. I have no idea why I even try to engage with assholes on this fucking board.

[digs]

Wow, I thought all the aggression here was hand-related…

But anyhoo, I have a number of Autistic and Bipolar students (and a Paranoid Delusional Schizophrenic, who when her brain’s behaving knows her behavior is hilarious). And they are pretty good at explaining themselves…

One of my favorites just says “Sorry, brain bad today. Tomorrow might be better.”
And she’ll sometimes show up, give a thumbs up and say “Good brain today!”
So she’s learning to ignore her “Bad Brain” Sounds like MysteryWriter is, too.

So I hope you and others will feel comfortable with saying “I don’t do _______.”

(Though I apologize for people like me whose first reaction would be “That’s interesting, are you Autistic? I knew a guy…do you know Brent? Oh…don’t you guys have a clubhouse or something? Well, Brent didn’t like people talking to him like this. So… What else don’t you like? Oh, people chatting vapidly? I KNOW, some people…”)

But seriously, even my own undiagnosed self will sometimes see that the “Pass The Peace” part of the church service is coming up and decide that’d be the perfect time to take a bathroom break. Or I sit in the back and just smile and flash a long-distance peace sign at the people that I know.

[ZPG_Zealot]

@raventhief

What does the detailed policy say about calling your female coworkers prostitutes and male coworkers rapists?

I wouldn’t refer to someone in those terms in a professional environment unless 1.) I was insulted first and 2.) I really lost control of my temper. I’ll admit it has happened, but I would prefer to report the insulter to Human Resources (to document the incident and punish the abuse officially).

[ZPG_Zealot]

@Chimera

My only real problem with ZPG Zealot’s position is the word ‘rape’. It is pretty much in the top 3 crimes in the West (Murder, Pedophilia, Rape) and to so casually throw out the word in the context of a mere offered handshake is inexcusably hyperbolic and threatening. At the wrong time, place or situation, it could result in legal charges, even temporarily, as well as loss of reputation and lawsuits.

At some point she’s going to get fired and/or sued to the ends of the Earth for harming someone’s reputation over it.

Strange, I have been legally employed for decades and never had any such problems. The only male co-workers I have ever encountered that I have had problems were all misogynists. Several of them are now convicted sex offenders. Strange, no one has ever accused me of the improper sexual conduct at work or improper conduct with anyone for that matter (and I work with teenagers all the time where it’s gossip central). The no touching policy is simply the most effective way I have found to deal with the opposite gender. It virtually eliminates misunderstandings and questionable behavior.

[wonky]

@TheMysteryWriter

It depends how strong I’m feeling, in the moment. Sometimes I just shake hands and it’s not that big a deal. Other times I do so, then rub my hands on something to erase the imaginary “touching germs”. Other times I’ll try, keeping my hands in my pockets, or behind my back, but if someone offers their hand anyway. I always feel like I have to shake it. I didn’t know until I read this thread that it was acceptable to just say , “I’m sorry. I don’t shake hands.” I wish I would have since it would have solved a lot of problems.

It’s absolutely acceptable. You can fill in more information if you like “I’m sorry. I’m not comfortable shaking hands…” or just leave it as-is. The one thing ZPG Zealot gets right is that you get to control who touches you.

You may encounter the occasional asshole, since there are plenty in the world, but try to start by giving the people the benefit of the doubt, that they won’t be assholes. It makes life better, most of the time.

[iiandyiiii]

ZPG Zealot, you never did respond to my post #301. Is my approach (which would never force touching on anyone, nor would it throw a tantrum) reasonable? It seems like the best way to respect the rights and preferences of every woman, both those who do not want to shake hands and those who feel that to verbally ask is insulting/offensive/discomfiting.

[ZPG_Zealot]

@iiandyiiii

Right – I would never force touching/contact on anyone, or create a scene. A cautious, slow hand-extension, not getting close or invading anyone’s personal space, would seem to me to eliminate any concern about discomfiting/insulting women who feel that anything short of treating them just like men is offensive, while also allowing any women who would prefer not to shake hands to easily avoid doing so. There’s nothing wrong with not wanting to shake hands, but there’s also nothing wrong with wanting to be treated literally exactly the same as men in a business environment. The only thing wrong, in my opinion, is forcing anything – forcing touching is entirely wrong, and it’s also wrong to force others to accept what they see as insult and offense just because someone else might be offended by a non-forced-touching gesture.

Since there is literally no handshake routine that can be guaranteed to not offend, insult, or discomfit everyone, then I try and pick the strategy that will result in the lowest likelihood of causing offense, insult, or discomfort.

The concerns you have expressed have to do with forced touching – an entirely reasonable concern. So I certainly want to take your concerns (and those of other women with similar concerns) into account. But I also have to take into account the concerns of women who feel differently – and based on conversations I’ve had, there are many more women in my part of the country who are offended/insulted/discomfited by asking, or not offering a handshake, then by a cautious, non-forced handshake offer.

So isn’t my approach reasonable? I’m not forcing anyone to touch – not even close. I don’t put my hand inches from anyone’s body – I’ll extend it just a little past my own body, and not into anyone’s space. This allows women who are not comfortable with handshakes to very easily decline, as well as allowing women who are comfortable with them and prefer them to accept and shake my hand.

If I lived and worked somewhere in which I had reason to believe that there were a large number of women who shared your feelings, and a lot fewer who have the feelings of the women I’ve spoken to, then I think the best approach might be different. But here, where I live, based on the evidence I’ve gathered through conversations with women, isn’t my approach a reasonable way to minimize the chance of causing any offense, insult, or discomfort?

No, the polite thing and correct thing to do is wait for the woman to extend her hand. That is always the correct etiquette. But if for some reason you can’t pass up the possible opportunity to shake someone’s hand, ask, with your words, not some implied non-verbal communication which someone may or may not be understand as a non threatening gesture.

[iiandyiiii]

@ZPG_Zealot

No, the polite thing and correct thing to do is wait for the woman to extend her hand. That is always the correct etiquette. But if for some reason you can’t pass up the possible opportunity to shake someone’s hand, ask, with your words, not some implied non-verbal communication which someone may or may not be understand as a non threatening gesture.

I’m forced to disagree, because so many women have told me specifically that your advice would be insulting/offensive/discomfiting to them. I’m sorry, but I can’t place your opinion alone as more valuable than the many women that I’ve specifically asked these questions.

I’ll note, again, that my only goal is to not offend/insult/discomfit women. I don’t care to touch any of them; handshakes have no value to me except in terms of how they (or their lack) affect others. Zero handshakes bothers me not in the least, nor does shaking everyone’s hand I ever meet.

Navigating different cultures and expectations is hard, but just because I may not be doing exactly what you think I should be doing, that doesn’t mean that I’m not honestly trying to do my best not to offend/insult/discomfit women.

[Grrr]

@ZPG_Zealot

Strange, I have been legally employed for decades and never had any such problems. The only male co-workers I have ever encountered that I have had problems were all misogynists. Several of them are now convicted sex offenders.

Oh, come the fuck on…

Your story just keeps getting harder and harder to believe.

[The_Lurker_Above]

@ZPG_Zealot

I wouldn’t refer to someone in those terms in a professional environment unless 1.) I was insulted first and 2.) I really lost control of my temper. I’ll admit it has happened, but I would prefer to report the insulter to Human Resources (to document the incident and punish the abuse officially).

Yeah… but you get insulted by the offer of a handshake (He thinks I’m a prostitute!) For all we know you get insulted because someone wore the wrong coloured shoes on Tuesday.

[kayaker]

Anyone here seen ZPG’s hands or have a picture of one, cause I’m harder than Chinese algebra imagining those long, smooth fingers.

[joyfool]

I’d just like to say that “complex battshittery” is the most cromulent phrase I’ve heard on the Dope. Let’s us it more often!

Thanks, Lasciel.