The idea that women must for politeness sake tolerate men touching them does an incredible amount of harm. It makes it easier for women to be preyed upon and it conditions them to accept that their bodies are not their own. Forcing a woman to shake hands with a man in order to get a job interview is just the beginning of the process of sexually harassing her.
That’s quite interesting.
So you are saying not only that you find a handshake to be, generally speaking, inappropriate social touching, but also you take it to be an extremely serious social interaction. I confess, I think of a handshake in business as the equivalent of saying “hi, nice to meet you” in a social setting. That is, a polite but nearly meaningless gesture.
I am familiar with the idea of shaking to seal a deal, but I don’t think I’ve ever actually done that.
My hope is that ZPG Zealot will realize that some men are offering a handshake (without demanding that it be accepted, and without throwing a tantrum) because their experience has clearly demonstrated to them that taking any other action, including asking if a handshake is okay, would be much more likely to offend or make uncomfortable a woman. She certainly doesn’t have to shake anyone’s hand, but hopefully she will realize that some handshakes are offered expressly because the men reasonably believes, based on input from other women, that this is the best course of action to minimize offense and uncomfortable feelings by women.
I suggested that you not touch, but decline politely, mentioning your different cultural understanding of the gesture, so as not to offend the person offering to shake.
I disagree that handshakes lead to sexual harassment, but either way, I feel that you have a viable option that doesn’t rely on changing what the rest of us are accustomed to do.
I do agree that it is rude an unpleasant for a person to grab your hand without permission, or to throw a hissy fit if he offers his hand and you decline.
Assuming such a thing ever really happens.
Define, “force”.
Men…UGH! IKR?!
Queen Elizabeth, Your Highness… Is that you?
Right – an offered handshake should never be forced, and a woman’s choice (to accept or not accept the offered hand) should be respected.
As witnessed thus far by no-one but you. You’ll need to provide actual evidence, not personal opinion stated as fact.
The thing is for a supposedly meaningless gesture, there’s a lot of emphasis placed on it. (At least on the Dope in real life the only people I’ve noticed putting emphasis on the concept seem to do so as part of their power struggle against women). In my culture handshaking is an extremely serious social interaction. Most business within our community is done with oral contracts and shaking hands in public is the contract.
Literally none of this is true. I’d urge you to get a grip but, well, y’know…
My own experience has been in offending men with the offer to shake hands. Some cultures don’t touch the opposite sex. I suspect I’m no less sexually intimidating to those men with my handshake than men offering handshakes are to ZPG. So, unless I am the one giving the job interview, my hands stay by my sides. If offered, I’ll accept the hand.
With a job interview, its expected. You have a strange catch twenty two. The lack of a handshake is going to throw anyone expecting it off, you can’t ask, because its probing into religion and attitudes about sex HR gets nervous about. So you stick out your hand. But when I’m the applicant, I wait and respond.
I really can’t think of many times other than a job interview and closing a deal where shaking hands is expected and its odd not to.
Mansplain much do we?
Well, it’s meaningless, except that it would be sort of rude not to, as it is rude to refuse to greet someone verbally. That’s why I suggest you offer some explanation when you decline, to make it clear that you are declining for cultural, not personal, reasons.
For clarity and frame of reference, would you be kind enough to explain what your culture is?
Oh, and in case it’s not obvious, I am a woman. I am also an American, and a Reform Jew, and grew up in a mostly non-Jewish community in the North East.
You might talk to your HR about the “probing into religion and attitudes about sex” issue. My HR department said a long time ago as long as the question is poised with the generic, “Do you shake hands?” without reference to religion or gender it’s quite all right, in fact preferred as it eliminates the possibility that you will insult someone who doesn’t feel comfortable touching another person.
ZPG, thanks for answering my questions. As a woman, I see myself as far, far more than just a vagina wrapped in other body parts (how’s that for a mental image?) but I have to say, I think for you the vagina part is far more important than any other. Therefore, all physical contact must perforce be sexual. As I said in the other thread, YOU are the one making even innocent gestures into some sort of sexual transaction.
I am all for respecting other cultural norms. However, when the actions of a woman disagree with YOUR norms, you attack, implying that we are traitors to our sex.
As I said, my sex is NOT the most important thing about me. I am not a “mascot” for the eeeevvvil men. I am a woman who differs from your opinion of “how women should act.” I am not suggesting that you “allow yourself to be forced” into handshakes. Kindly don’t suggest that women who *do *shake hands are somehow evil.
OK, its a second personal opinion, but I agree with her.
I’ve taught my daughter that she controls who touches her. That would include handshakes - which I have no issue with myself. We’ve taught her this from a young age, because inappropriate tickling, pulling hair, pushing - becomes smacks on the ass at work and dry humping in the subway when you are older. Or the more insidious “let me watch what you are doing on the computer while I touch your shoulder and lean in and see what color bra you have on.” And I don’t want my daughter to ever doubt that it is she who controls her own body. But if I have a cultural prohibition against touching, and you force your touch on me, how is that different than grabbing my boob? I determine what is appropriate to do with my body.
Can we all agree the bowing as a greeting is far superior to a handshake? No one ever gets touched, thus it reduces the spread of germs and keeps people’s anxiety down. Wasn’t there another thread somewhere that said that autism was going to rise to 1 in 60something people in America? Would you really want a lower functioning autist to scream or otherwise feel terrible just because you tried to touch him with a handshake?
Bowing is the allergen free, vegan dish at a restaurant. Everyone can partake and appreciate it equally. Handshakes are the rare steak, not everyone can enjoy it (Hindu, the immunodeficient, etc) and it might actively offend their sensibility to be innocently offered a bite. And that goes against our motives of sitting down at a table with others to begin with, it is to share with and appreciate others.
As a handshake is supposed to be a universally friendly greeting, how friendly is it to playfully punch your well known friend’s shoulder (very)? Now how friendly is it to punch your 90 yr old grandma’s shoulder (not at all)? Thus to truly be a universal greeting of friendship, our act must offend no one (or at least the smallest amount possible). It is not to say that other forms of greeting are not allowed, but that they should be strictly cordoned off so that only the people that you know will take it well, will. So it behooves us to all bow to each other, if we do indeed want to be maximally friendly and thoughtful towards others’ legitimate differences.