You got dissed.
Then don’t. But don’t go around indicting an entire gender for having ulterior motives around common and benign greeting custom practiced around the world (with noted exceptions).
If the first quote is your justification for opposing handshakes, then your second quote begins to contradict, as they both rely on large groups of people (culture) reaffirming an idea, for validity (better or worse).
In context, when we look at culture, we’re literally recognizing the practices of large groups of people who believe or share in common ideas and conventions, so there is indeed some validity to traditionally shared practices in numbers, whether or not we personally agree with them. At least when speaking of the US and many other western cultures, the handshake is considered, foremost, a gesture of respect, and not a sexual advance. I think that’s an important baseline to work from.
I’m not sure why you’re placing so-called in quotes. In this part of the world, it is common social behavior.
Politeness doesn’t require that women allow men to touch their bodies. Politeness suggests that people exercise common gestures of respect or etiquette, when interacting with other people in social settings, and if you personally choose to decline, that’s your choice. As an autonomous person, your choice doesn’t require further explanation, but neither should you decry men who opt to respectfully shake hands with their peers, as trying to assert dominance over the vaginas of women.
In this scenario, if someone is “forcing” anything, that’s the problem-- “forcing”. Offering a handshake, though, is something different and you’re free to decline.
The latter is many levels below someone helping themselves to your private anatomy, which is generally understood to be an unwelcome sexual advance.
[QUOTE=Tithonus]
[QUOTE=ZPG Zealot]
The actual etiquette is a man waits for a woman to extend her hand.
[/QUOTE]
Says who?
[/QUOTE]
As per Emily Post: “In North America and Europe, a firm handshake is an appropriate form of greeting. In Asia and the Middle East the customary grip is gentler; a too-hearty grip could be interpreted as aggressive. In some Islamic countries, women do not shake hands. Since this prohibition varies country to country and region to region, rather than offering your hand to a woman, wait for her to extend her hand first.”
Granted, that’s for travel and social interactions, not business.
This article fromEtiquette International says there’s a difference: “The most important difference between business and social etiquette is that social etiquette is based on chivalry, on the concept that the little lady has to be coddled and protected, whereas business etiquette has military origins. It is based on hierarchy and power.”
Therefore, the customer is at the top, then the CEO down the totem pole to the peons, regardless of gender. So a man offering his hand to someone in a business setting, male or female, is just following accepted business etiquette and not trying to intimidate, possess, or demean the woman.
Of course common sense has to enter into it. If someone says they don’t shake hands with the opposite sex/anyone period because of cultural or religious reasons, trying to force them into it anyway is downright rude regardless of the gender of the shaker and shakee.
From the same article: “By the way, social etiquette decreed that the woman be the one to extend her hand first. You will still find the occasional matron or woman from another culture who is taken aback if the man extends his hand. In the business arena, it doesn’t matter who extends the hand first, but the one who does takes control of the situation, takes matters in hand if you will.”
The problem being that handshakes are most often used in business nowadays, where the power imbalance is not equal. If you boss extends his hand and you refuse, then he presses you to take it - is he forcing? Because if he propositions you, and you say no, and he asks again - that’s wrong.
I don’t.
dear me, I hadn’t realized this thread was in the pit.
I’m going to stick up for her, though. It’s difficult being the misunderstood minority, and that’s what I think ZPG is. And while I couldn’t find anything about Roma and handshakes on a quick google search, I did find a lot of discussion about Orthodox Jews and handshakes (quick business handshakes are generally permitted, but discouraged) and it seems completely plausible, indeed, likely, to me that what she says about her culture is true.
I completely disagree about handshakes being sexual, and I completely disagree that a man should treat a woman as a fragile flower in a business setting, and carefully inquire before offering his hand. But I don’t think it’s reasonable to attack her for anything she’s said in this thread, either.
I don’t exactly like being called a gender traitor. I might get more upset about it if I valued her opinion. But as it is, she’s on ignore now and I no longer will have to deal with her.
Where might one acquire one of these Anti-Rape gloves? Amazon?
I’d disagree, but I’d only have anecdotal experience to support it. I and many of my friends and associates use handshakes (among other forms of greeting) whenever we meet with a group of friends, meet new friends of friends, parents (and their children), and many other social and professional interactions.
Any actual or perceived power balance between these groups is pretty much a non-factor, in most cases, and neither will it be challenged or established by whether or not someone’s hand has been shaken (at least not without other tells). I’m sure you have your own experiences, but it goes to show we can’t assume intentions, especially when they’re within the lines of conventional, respectful greetings.
That’s not in dispute. Forcing anyone to do anything is wrong, generally speaking. Most of this discussion stemmed from the far more common practice of offering a handshake in an otherwise benign setting.
I believe they’re made by Trojan.
If we’re talking about handshakes, this is a big leap. It’s as if:
*
“But if I have a prohibition against talking to strangers, and you say “Hi, how are you?” how is that different than sending me 20 stalker texts a day?”*
[QUOTE=TipTapTwo]
Can we all agree the bowing as a greeting is far superior to a handshake? …
[/QUOTE]
:curtseys politely:
Regards,
Shodan
It wasn’t my intention to accuse you. My comment was directed at ZPG Zealot’s ridiculous claims.
Your ideas are intriguing to me and I wish to subscribe to your newsletter.
What about post #58?
There is a big difference between asking permission before touching someone and trying to touch them without asking permission. The polite person would err on the side of caution trying not invade the personal space and comfort zone of person where their action can have the greatest effect. It’s not going to endanger the reputation of a woman for you to ask permission before trying to shake her hand. It’s not going to cause her to risk being scorned, beaten, divorced, or killed. She’s not going to feel shamed or depressed or suicidal. Sticking your hand out to a woman who does not feel it is appropriate for whatever reason to touch someone of the opposite gender can result in all of that. Therefore, if you actually care about the woman in front of you, you will ask.
…Wow.
That article speaks in very general terms about Romani discrimination. likening Romani women’s “subordination and lack of reproductive rights” to minority and black slave women of the past. The speaker in the article notes that, "Romani women have few legal rights, Oprea said. During childbirth, Romani women are often forced to sign consent forms for sterilization procedures, even though they cannot read.” Their entire history is one of constant subjugation and stigmatization. Other sources of information, such as wikipedia’s Romani society and culture section
and the site for helping people understand the differences and challenges of adopting Russian and Ukranian (and Romani) children
http://www.frua.org/countriesandculture/romany-gypsy-copy
say that even within the Romani, there are many faiths and sub-traditions. Maybe ZPG Zealot is from a conservative Muslim Romani household/society. It doesn’t really matter. Who are we to trust about what someone believes, other than their-self? Everyone’s ideas and opinions on anything come from an anecdotal and subjective place. We can only talk about what our own mind thinks, and that has been built up by our parents, local community, and greater society. All we know from talking to ZPG Zealot is that she believes what she believes with as much clarity and support from her own experiences and community upbringing, as we do when we refuse (are unable) to see the things she says in a charitable light.
Of course, for me as well, I find equating handshake=rape too much. But I think of it similarly to how if I showed a Muslim person the bottom of my shoe, that would be grossly insulting. But here in America, we like to sit on a couch (see guests on talk shows like Letterman, or Conan O’Brian) with one leg over the other in a triangle pattern; thus inadvertently showing the person sitting next to me, the bottom of my shoe. Would it be better to never sit like that again in the chance that I show my shoe to a Muslim, and only squeeze my thighs together from now on? Would it be too much effort to ask people if they mind my sitting style?
We accept that some gestures/actions are bad in some cultures and fine in others, right? We accept that globalization is real and that everyone will have to soften their own actions and grow a thicker skin towards others in order for everyone to get along, as our disparate communities mix together? Fine, this thread is about exactly that kind of give-and-take.
But the Romani have been seen by the dominant nation as subhumans ripe for victimization for all of time, it seems. They have been marginalized and taken-from for so long, it leaves a bad taste in my mouth to then further expect them to give up their customs/beliefs just so we the people of the superpower USA can be that much more comfortable and un-bothered by a minority rat squeaking in the corner. I would rather if we gave up some of our ground instead, as we have so much more to comfortably give.
That is why when Guinastasia said
[QUOTE=Guinastasia]
You’re an annoying vapid troll and I don’t believe half of the shit you say.
[/QUOTE]
it left a bad feeling in my heart. I feel that ZPG Zealot has these strong beliefs because she is coming from a life of victimization. Her own Romani/Muslim(?) culture subjugates women well enough on its own, and strips them of their volition in many areas in life. It did protect her from, in her culture, other men advancing/talking/touching upon her when she got married. But now in America it is sanctioned, no… expected, that men thrust themselves into her world again (that is, men are allowed/expected to initiate contact with women, when that was taboo in her culture). Her volition in life (her choice to initiate contact), her personal safe space, has again been breached and made smaller thanks to this particular intermingling of American customs and her own.
For my advice, if ZPG Zealot has not already come to terms with her reality and found a way of getting through life unmolested, then I do suggest preemptively bowing at every opportunity so people can think to themselves “ah, Japanese style. Ok I can get behind that” and then they too will bow at you instead of shaking hands.
Been dealing with people in business situations for decades, formal politeness has always seemed the best strategy. Gender is taken into account all the time for issues like maternity leave, breast feeding, etc.