The ZPG Zealot handshake thread party extravaganza

[puzzlegal]

@ZPG_Zealot

There is a big difference between asking permission before touching someone and trying to touch them without asking permission…

Yes, there is. That is why the standard custom is to extend your right hand, thumb up, palm, open, into the space between you and the person whose hand you are offering to shake. That person then has the option of accepting your offer, or rejecting it. I have declined to shake hands on a few occasions (when I had pink-eye, for instance, and didn’t want to spread my infection.) No one has ever taken my hand against my will.

Consent doesn’t have to be verbal, it just has to be clear and unambiguous. My extending my hand is an offer. Your taking my hand in yours is consenting to a handshake.

While I would characterize the man who grabs my hand without waiting for my consent to be rude, rather than a sexual predator, I agree that he is in the wrong.

@ZPG_Zealot

Been dealing with people in business situations for decades, formal politeness has always seemed the best strategy. Gender is taken into account all the time for issues like maternity leave, breast feeding, etc.

Ummm, no. Federal law allows as much paternity leave as maternity leave, the different word is irrelevant. Women who need to pump milk, or take disability leave after a delivery, are having a particular physical condition accommodated, just as my employee who had cancer was allowed to take off every other Friday for chemotherapy (and the following Monday and Tuesday if he wasn’t in good enough shape to work those days.) Personally, I am annoyed when a man stands in my way to “let me off the elevator first”, I would be really angry if he and I actually had different rights in the workplace.

@Eliahna

C’mon, ZPG Zealot, we’re only talking about bodily autonomy here and ignoring the other valid concern about handshaking: if a man offers a woman his hand, it’s because he thinks she’s a prostitute.

And if a woman isn’t offended by that, or accepts the handshake, she may very well be one.

Surely then, if a man asks a woman if she shakes hands, he’s effectively saying that he considers it likely enough that she’s a prostitute that it’s worth clarifying? A man putting his hand out first to a woman in front of others is a gesture that damages the woman’s reputation by implying she’s a hooker, yet asking “Do you shake hands?”, which is more or less code for “Are you a hooker?” is ok?

Oh, and let’s not get bogged down in the Romani stuff. ZPG attributes this to her old South upbringing in the first link above.

Oh, never mind. Perhaps she is just a troll. That’s pretty ridiculous.

For comparison, Orthodox Jews also have a prohibition against touching unrelated persons of the opposite sex. But amongst the Orthodox, there is disagreement as to whether it is allowed to accept a business handshake.

Negiah

[QUOTE=wikipedia]
The Career Development Center at Yeshiva University, a Modern Orthodox institution, informs its students that “Shaking hands is a customary part of the interview process. Halacha permits non-affectionate contact between men and women when necessary. A quick handshake can be assumed to be business protocol. Since failure to shake hands will most likely have a strong negative effect on the outcome, it is necessary non-affectionate contact, which is permissible.”[36]

However, nonetheless, it has been said in the name of prominent Yeshiva University rabbis that one shouldn’t engage fully in a handshake, but rather, one shouldn’t hold a tight grip. His hand should be “helpless” and as if the other person is initiating and completing the full action, with his hand being the innocent bystander. Acting as such prevents embarrassment and or loss of a business deal, while at the same time allows one to stay in the framework of halacha (Jewish Law).
[/QUOTE]

http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/1051760/jewish/May-I-Shake-the-Ladys-Hand.htm

The issue that seems to have caused the most discussion is whether there is an exception to the prohibition in a business situation. Some commentators take the position that where shaking hands is in a business context, and is clearly a non-affectionate contact, it is permissible under Jewish law (Наlасhаh). The Office of Career Services at Yeshiva University, which is considered Modern Orthodox, takes this position as part of the interview process for its students applying for jobs after graduation. Haredim and Hassidic commentators do not agree.

Traditional Judaism regards touching as a highly sensual act. Some commentators would allow the handshake only when one person offers their hand. Here the rationale is that to refuse to reciprocate would embarrass that person which would be wrong. Rabbi Harvey Belovski of Golders Green Synagogue in London describes this position as being that of a respected minority, but not that of the majority of halachic experts. People who describe themselves as shоmеr negiah would not shake hands even in a business context. In their view, in our society where people are trained to appreciate cultural and religious differences, a short explanation would prevent anyone from feeling embarrassed.

However, note that there is NO hint in these that anyone might be offended if someone from another community OFFERS to shake hands. In fact, there is concern that refusing to accept the handshake might embarrass the other party.

[raventhief]

What jumps out at me from this and other threads is that she seriously doesn’t seem to see any difference between an OFFER and FORCE. “Here I am going to stick my hand out if you’d like to shake” is apparently the exact same thing as “TAKE MY HAND YOU WHORE!!!”

[Typo_Negative]

We met a fella the other day who shook mine and my wife’s hands. I am now honor-bound to kick his ass.

[Battle_Pope]

@Typo_Negative

We met a fella the other day who shook mine and my wife’s hands. I am now honor-bound to kick his ass.

Not into threesomes?

[Guinastasia]

@TipTapTwo

it left a bad feeling in my heart. I feel that ZPG Zealot has these strong beliefs because she is coming from a life of victimization.

Obviously you’ve never read anything she’s posted. This is a woman who has endorsed infanticide, for crissakes. (But adoption is bad, mmkay?) She’s full of shit and I don’t care how “victimized” she was in the past. It’s not an excuse for being a sociopath.

[muldoonthief]

@Typo_Negative

We met a fella the other day who shook mine and my wife’s hands. I am now honor-bound to kick his ass.

Wait, I thought you were supposed to kick her ass? Or does she kick yours since that monster shook both your hands? I’m so confused.

[Jragon]

This is why whenever I meet someone, male or female, I introduce myself by stabbing them with a knife.

[muldoonthief]

@Guinastasia

Obviously you’ve never read anything she’s posted. This is a woman who has endorsed infanticide, for crissakes. (But adoption is bad, mmkay?) She’s full of shit and I don’t care how “victimized” she was in the past. It’s not an excuse for being a sociopath.

And to make it clear what a complete fucking horrible nutjob ZPG is - some select quotes from the infanticide thread:

@ZPG_Zealot

Not necessarily, putting an unwanted baby up for adoption does not prevent the other biological parent from claiming custody and suing for child support. As you can legally shoot someone who breaks into your house to steal, I would have no qualms about killing someone who would be stealing hundreds of thousands if not millions of dollars from me over the next 18 years.

@ZPG_Zealot

If the tot’s screaming and crying were damaging your mental health, you would probably have a good case that it was necessary throttle the tot. Also, if you believed your own life was in danger by the tot’s presence or that’s the tot’s death might facilitate your escape, you could probably get away with it.

That’s right folks - being sued for child support and having to listening to a crying baby are perfectly valid excuses for murder in her moral code.

All this from a self-described fortune teller who happily takes money to do palm and tarot card readings. Don’t feel sympathy for her. Feel disgust and horror.

[The_Tooth]

@dropzone

Does no one take classes in comportment in the third grade anymore? If a gentleman is introduced to a lady he makes a nodding bow of respect. IF she proffers her hand, with the back up, he takes it and gives it a slight, no contact fake kiss. If she presents it with her thumb on top, he shakes it gently, with none of that used car salesman enthusiasm. This assumes she is wearing gloves, like a proper lady. If she proffers her naked hand, she is a whore and the gentleman arranges a later meeting.

Does nobody learn how to behave or were you all raised in barns?

We didn’t get to the whoring part until fourth grade.

[wonky]

@Anaamika

I don’t exactly like being called a gender traitor. I might get more upset about it if I valued her opinion. But as it is, she’s on ignore now and I no longer will have to deal with her.

You are a gender traitor. I, however, am a whore. I, um, win?

Anyone notice that the violent men who are beating their women for shaking hands are actually just agreeing with ZPG that those women are whores? And since she’s okay with killing women who get pregnant, it’s a little hard to believe she minds a few whores getting beaten.

"Shake a woman’s hand and people, especially me, will think she’s a whore. And then she’ll get beaten up. So if you don’t want her beaten up, don’t give us cause to think she’s a whore!

IOW, nice lady you’ve got here. Shame if something we’re to happen to her.

[Siam_Sam]

In Thailand, they use the wai, the palms-together gesture seen in many a movie. The higher it’s raised, the greater the respect, with the highest position of all reserved for the king, practically up above the head.

What’s funny is when you meet a Thai for the first time, and you do a wai, but he wants to be Western for you and so extends a hand for a handshake. Awkward pause as you each see what the other is doing, then you extend your hand to grip his, but in the meantime he’s taken his hands up in a wai. And it goes back and forth like that a couple of times. Always funny.

[QuickSilver]

@ZPG_Zealot

It’s kind of like if a woman says yes, you can have sex with me versus you throwing her on the bed and shoving your penis into her vagina.

I think I understand where you’re coming from now – You’re fucking insane. Thanks for the clarification.

[Velocity]

@ZPG_Zealot

It’s kind of like if a woman says yes, you can have sex with me versus you throwing her on the bed and shoving your penis into her vagina.

You’re missing the point. His question was about gender equality. By your logic, so if a man offers his hand to shake a woman’s hand is akin to forcing sex on her, then when she extends her hand, she’s doing what - forcing sex on him?

[dropzone]

@The_Tooth

We didn’t get to the whoring part until fourth grade.

Public school kid, eh? Sister Mary Ellen kept us up to date, circa 1885.

[Guinastasia]

If I understand her, sluts and deceptive women who get pregnant women get what they deserve when a man abandons her or beats her, but woe to those who extend a hand to shake.

She’s either the nuttiest nut that ever did nut, or the trolliest troll that ever did troll. (Either way, she can get fucked by a cactus.)

[Voyager]

@Jragon

This is why whenever I meet someone, male or female, I introduce myself by stabbing them with a knife.

Tsk, tsk. Always ask first.

[Voyager]

@Velocity

You’re missing the point. His question was about gender equality. By your logic, so if a man offers his hand to shake a woman’s hand is akin to forcing sex on her, then when she extends her hand, she’s doing what - forcing sex on him?

And men who shake are forcing sex on each other? And here me thinking I was not a gay rapist.

[Voyager]

@Siam_Sam

In Thailand, they use the wai, the palms-together gesture seen in many a movie. The higher it’s raised, the greater the respect, with the highest position of all reserved for the king, practically up above the head.

What’s funny is when you meet a Thai for the first time, and you do a wai, but he wants to be Western for you and so extends a hand for a handshake. Awkward pause as you each see what the other is doing, then you extend your hand to grip his, but in the meantime he’s taken his hands up in a wai. And it goes back and forth like that a couple of times. Always funny.

I learned to bow before going to Japan for a business trip. The problem with these greetings is that status is inherently a part of them, while hand shaking is inherently pretty equal. A cat can shake the hand of a king. Not that hand shaking is better in any absolute way, it is more suited to American culture.

[octopus]

@ZPG_Zealot

The idea that women must for politeness sake tolerate men touching them does an incredible amount of harm. It makes it easier for women to be preyed upon and it conditions them to accept that their bodies are not their own. Forcing a woman to shake hands with a man in order to get a job interview is just the beginning of the process of sexually harassing her.

What about during basketball or a pickup game of football and you make a good play. Is it offensive to get a friendly pat on the backside and a compliment such as “nice hustle?”

[Alan_Smithee]

FTR, I feel fairly confident in saying that handshaking aversion is not part of Roma culture, and ZPG Zealot is lying when she implies that it is. To be sure, she is very careful never to explicitly claim that her Roma background is the source of her beliefs about shaking hands, but she will justify those beliefs as common among minority cultures (actually just Orthodox Jews, AFAIK) and allude to her own background belonging to a minority culture. If people ask what culture she’s part of that teaches that handshakes are akin to rape, she will mention as an aside that she is Roma (or let others mention for her). She then sits back while people say things like, “I didn’t know Roma avoided shaking hands between the sexes,” or attempt to defend her beliefs on the basis that she is Roma, without ever attempting to correct them. She takes advantage of people’s ignorance about Roma culture to justify her own idiosyncratic and otherwise unjustifiable beliefs.