Theists and Satan

Great Debates
41

arg…

I realize this might be hard for a little brainwashed geek like yourself to believe…but I came up with that stuff after years of reflection, reading, discussion…not from Star trek…and I dont watch deep spce 9, I dont get my personal beliefs from tv…or televangelists either…I come to MY OWN CONCLUSIONS…try it some day…you might like it.

“Star trek…(grumble grumble) never been so insulted…(murmer, grumble) friggin kids nowadays…(grumble) of all the nerve…(grumble) hate that show…”

.

“Screw you guys…I’m goin’ home!”

42

sorry about the geek crack…it SHOULD have read “pimply face twerp”

I cant believe I got sucked into this crap…Holy Christ Almighty! I should have known better and not tried to offer an opinion to an emptyheaded robotic jesus freak bent on saving us all whether we want it or not…um…bite me god-boy, I’d rather go to hell and be with all my friends than go to heaven and listen to your bullshit for eternity .
Why dont you take your bicycle for a ride and go experience LIFE istead of obsessing over religion…
f%$& me! here I go again…never mind god-boy, go back to your scriptures!

“Screw you guys…I’m goin’ home!”

43

Adam: Thanks for listing those references. I was going to, but decided not since I lacked time and didn’t want to bother looking them all up. And as I said in my post, these are the echoes of the Book of Enoch and others that one finds in the canonical Scriptures. The Bible alludes to these writings, but doesn’t quote them outright.

Kelli: Hey, sit down, have a beer, and chill. It’s just an opinion board, after all—no need to pop your corpuscles. :slight_smile: We may not agree with each other all the time, but nobody says we have to.

44

Pickman: No prob. :slight_smile: I can’t find my KJV Bible anywhere, and the NIV never uses the word “Lucifer.” I can’t remember where I heard about Lucifer/Satan, and the great rebellion, but it’s interesting to know that it came from the apocryphal books. If you read the Bible, especially that passage in Ezekiel, the ideas about Lucifer do coincide with the Bible.

Kelli: Wow. All I meant was that your beliefs sounded like those things on that show. I didn’t even imply that you got your ideas from the show. I’m just saying that they are very similar. My goodness. I’m sorry that I offended you, but BELIEVE me, I had NO intention of doing so. Please forgive me Kelli. Man, I wasn’t even making fun of your beliefs, I was saying…my goodness, you have no idea how bad I feel right now. :frowning: I’m REALLY sorry Kelli.

Sincerely, Adam

“Life is hard…but God is good”

45

forgiven…lets not tangle further, “its not logical.”

get it?locical?-star trek reference!
:slight_smile:

46

A second thanks, Pickman. I’ve been trying to find stories of Satan in the Bible but never could.

For anyone interested in the Devil, here’s my take on him. (This is from second hand knowledge, although I really should read the books Pickman mentioned, to verify)

Unlike ARG, I don’t believe the Devil to be just a scapegoat for all evil. The Devil is a real being, with real character. We are responsible for our own actions.

Oh, wait, a side mention to Satan (the poster on this board) about the Anne Rice book Memnoch, the Devil. I believe that at the end of the book, it is found that Memnoch only used his love for humans as a line to deceive the vampires. He had other purposes in mind, and only used the vampires for his own agenda. Also, you should watch the The Devil’s Advocate, great movie.

Anyway, Lucifer, I believe, was also created in God’s image. He, as we humans, thirsts for knowledge, and with knowledge, omnipotence.

Lucifer had a long disagreement with God, and was very jealous of Jesus. He wanted to know the unknowable. But the trinity would always have these meetings behind closed doors and Lucifer wasn’t invited. A lot of Lucifer’s arguments are similar to arguments of posters on this board. “God, if you created me with a thirst for knowledge, then why do you deny my thirst?” God would answer, “There are things you cannot know, my created one.”

We all have the desire to be like God. (For atheists, this can be a good argument for why God was created by man) But we are ultimately denied, either by our limited brains or some supernatural hocus pocus.

This led Satan to come to the logical conclusion: that God is a sadist. He enjoys suffering.

Therefore Satan would finally spite God and say, “Well, I would rather be dead than follow you.”

I think a lot of posters on this board can relate to this. We, actually, should take heart with Satan. I don’t believe that Hell exists. Perhaps momentarily, but not eternally. If there were someplace I could hang with Satan, it might be kind of cool, although I’d constantly be watching the lying, double-crossing son of a bitch. But in the end we all just die. And I would rather die than have eternal life with a God who enjoys my suffering.

But then again, perhaps God and the Devil don’t exist. I’m beginning to believe my slip into agnosticism to be beneficial.

Yup, without God, we have only ourselves, a group of detestibly lying, murdering, self-absorbed odious vermin. (FTR, I’m drunk.)

¾È ³ç, ÁÖ µ¿ ÀÏ

47

I know, but taking into account ARG has posted elsewhere he reads no books other than the Bible, I wasn’t sure he would hang on all the way through the series. For Love of Evil could possibly be understandable as a stand-alone, although I couldn’t vouch for it, as I didn’t read it that way.

I would also recommend that ARG read Dawn Song by Sharon Green if he could find it, as well as The Silver Sun and The Sable Moon by Nancy Springer (yeah, yeah, and the rest of the Isle books but those two, IMO, touch the most on certain aspects of religion).

48

Kelli: Cool. I’m glad there’s no hard feelings. :slight_smile:

Kat: You don’t think I can hang on? LOL You seriously underestimate my powers. :wink:
The funny thing about me is that when I do pick up a book, I can’t put it down. So I think I’d be able to read that series. :slight_smile:

Adam

49

Without going into details, let me ask if any of you posting to this thread have read Heinlein’s Job: A Comedy of Justice?

50

Polycarp - yes.

It was a very strange book

The reason gentlemen prefer blondes is that there are not enough redheads to go around.

51

oh sorry I thought this was a topic about my sweetheart lol

52

Job-A Comedy of Justice was a fun read. Try a short story by Harlan Ellison titled Deathbird. Definitely a different take on Satan and God.

53

Slythe—

Great book by Ellison, * Deathbird Stories *, wish I could find a copy of it again. The interesting premise was, according to Ellison, that between God and Satan, it was God that had the better PR man.

“…send lawyers, guns, and money…”

 Warren Zevon
54

Bluepony, not only that, but neither “God” nor “Satan” were what they were commonly represented as. Both were aliens, and one (I think Satan) was a member of a race of creatures who were basically the U.N. of the universe, adjudicating disputes between worlds. GREAT story, one of my all-time favorites. The section on the death of his dog (a true story) will bring tears to your eyes every time.

Brush with fame: My mother and Harlan Ellison went to the same elementary school, only about 15 years apart.

55

It’s clear that if Heatherlee has a “full and happy sex life,” (paraphrased definition), then Satan has abilities not granted to mortals. (Contemplating 12-hour drive to Michigan with dread)

:wink:

56

Kellibelli said, “… even if you are right about god and all that, he wouldnt want you to BLINDLY follow what ever nut is in charge of the church…” and more.

Anyway, you have one of the most insightful philosophies that I have heard in a long time. Hopefully this will open Adam up to some new experiences that aren’t quite so rigid.

HUGS
SC

57

I hate to rescue this thread from its eternal rest, but–

I just found out that the word “Lucifer” only appears in ONE place throughout the whole King James bible, and doesn’t appear at ALL in the NIV translation or the NASB translation.

The one and only appearance of Lucifer is in Isaiah 14:12, which begins, “How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning!”. The word translated as “Lucifer” is the Hebrew word “Helel”. The NIV bible translates this word as “Morning Star”, and the NASB translates it as “Shining One”.

“Helel” was apparently a nickname given to King Nebuchadnezar.
So, no, the notion that Satan used to be Lucifer up in heaven and then fell from grace does not appear in the bible. So there.

The truth, as always, is more complicated than that.

58

Tracer…as PM pointed out earlier in this thread (and several eternities back as this board goes! :)), the whole “Satan fell from heaven” mythos derives from the apocryphal Book of Enoch. I think Milton had a great deal to do with popularizing it, though I’m not sure to what extent it was a big issue prior to Paradise Lost. BTW, “Apocryphal” above is used in the Catholic definition, not in that batch of stuff stuck between the Old and New Testaments and referred to as “The Apocrypha” in many older Bibles. Anyone who wants to find Enoch is advised to look for something called The Lost Books of the Bible. I believe what we’re discussing is the Slavonic Enoch, not the Ethiopian one, though my pseudopigraphical background is sadly lacking. Tom, got any background?

BTW, Enoch is the only book in this collection that made the Big Time: St. Jude’s canonical epistle quotes from it.

59

“pseudopigraphical”? Does that mean “dealing with pictures of fake hogs?”

The truth, as always, is more complicated than that.

60

I don’t believe in Satan, the Easter Bunny, witches, goblins or Superman.

I left out the Tooth Fairy because I’m still undecided on that one.

Sheesh.

Underneath my clothes I am completely naked.