There aren't enough rolleyes for this comment from the new Pope...

The BBQ Pit
41

Tom, the point you appear to be wishing to make, though you don’t make it explicit, is that the burdens that Joseph is perforce going to have to carry in the remaining years of his life are greater than those that my dad will carry. From this follows what appears to be your point, that the greater the burdens the shorter the expected lifespan. I’m not sure that either of these claims is true.

Regarding the average age of the last 14 popes (going back to 1800), the fact that they lived to such a ripe old age (an average between them of 78 years) suggests that they don’t do so badly when holding power. I would say that this would suggest (given that it has consistently outstripped the average life expectancy of males in Italy) that doing a job you get a great deal of job satisfaction from is good for the soul, and makes you wonder whether, if like popes, men doing other jobs didn’t have to retire, they wouldn’t in fact live rather longer

The average duration of rule of the last 14 popes is 12.4 years - enough time to make a difference. And not all the popes who are “young” when appointed lived a long time. John Paul I, for example, though just 63 when voted in, lasted only a couple of months.

So, my money is going on Joe serving close to the average, and finally pegging out when he’s 88.

42

Actually, that’s more like 14.5 years’ average service as Pope: 204 years, divided by 14 Popes.

At any rate, the average age of those 14 when elevated to the papacy was just over 64. So on the average, they tended to kick off at 78 or 79 years of age, and Joe Rat I is already 78.

So there’s every reason to expect a shorter-than-average papacy for Joey the Rat; odds are against his living to 92.

BFD. They have (or had) this line that you’re supposed to follow a fat Pope with a thin Pope. My comment was, this is more like following a thin Pope with an anorexic one. The Joe Rat papacy in all likelihood represents an extension and intensification of the more reactionary side of the remarkably long Wojtyla papacy. Accordingly, he can be very effective (in a negative sense) in the six or seven years that he might be expected to reign.

43

Wait. Are you telling me that Popehood isn’t voluntary? You can’t turn it down or not run for Pope in the first place?

44

The linked article mentions the Pope visiting “the tomb of St Paul the Apostle Outside the Walls”. Is there a tomb of St Paul the Apostle Inside the Walls?

45

The supposed tomb is at the church of St. Paul Outside the Walls. There is (or was) a smaller church of St. Paul within the ancient city of Rome, but his burial location is traditionally considered to be at the church outside the walls–hence the name of the church.

46

Of course you can - no one is going to put a gun to your head and say, “You will oversee Church doctrine and practice”. But I suppose that one might feel an obligation to serve if elected.

47

Here’s the list of popes since 1800; dates of rule; date born/date died:

Pius VII March 14, 1800-Aug. 20, 1823. [August 14, 1740 - August 20, 1823]
Leo XII Sept. 28, 1823-Feb. 10, 1829. [August 22, 1760- February 10, 1829]
Pius VIII March 31, 1829-Nov. 30, 1830. [November 20, 1761 - December 1, 1830]
Gregory XVI Feb. 2, 1831-June 1, 1846. [September 18, 1765 – June 1, 1846]
Pius IX June 16, 1846-Feb. 7, 1878. [May 13, 1792 – February 7, 1878]
Leo XIII Feb. 20, 1878-July 20, 1903. [March 2, 1810-July 20, 1903]
Pius X Aug. 4, 1903-Aug. 20, 1914. [June 2, 1835 - 20 August 1914]
Benedict XV Sept. 3, 1914-Jan. 22, 1922. [November 21, 1854 – January 22, 1922]
Pius XI Feb. 6, 1922-Feb. 10, 1939. [May 31, 1857 - February 10, 1939]
Pius XII March 2, 1939-Oct. 9, 1958. [March 2, 1876 – October 9, 1958]
John XXIII Oct. 28, 1958-June 3, 1963. [November 25, 1881–June 3, 1963]
Paul VI June 21, 1963-Aug. 6, 1978. [September 26, 1897 - August 6, 1978]
John Paul I Aug. 26-Sept. 28, 1978. [October 17, 1912 – September 28, 1978]
John Paul II Oct. 16, 1978-April 2, 2005. [May 18, 1920 – April 2, 2005.]
Benedict XVI April 19, 2005-. [April 16, 1927-]

Popes born in 18th century

Pius VII 59; 23 yrs [83]
Leo XII 63; 5 yrs [68]
Pius VIII 67; 1 yr [79]
Gregory XVI 65; 15 yrs [80]
Pius IX 54; 31 yrs [85]

Ave age elected 62
Ave age died 79
Ave length of rule 15

Popes born in 19th century

Leo XIII 67; 25 yrs [93]
Pius X 68; 11 yrs [69]
Benedict XV 59; 7 yrs [67]
Pius XI 64; 17 yrs [81]
Pius XII 63; 18 yrs [82]
John XXIII 76; 4 yrs [81]
Paul VI 65; 15 yrs [80]

Ave age elected 67
Ave age died 79
Ave length of rule 14

Popes born in 20th century

John Paul I 65; 0 yr [65]
John Paul II 58; 26 yrs [84]
Benedict XVI 78;

Ave age elected 67

Popes over 70 years old when elected (since 1700):

Pope Benedict XIII 75; 5 yrs died at 81 (1724)
Pope Clement XII 78; 9 yrs died at 87 (1730)
John XXIII 76; 4 yrs died at 81 (1963)
Benedict XVI 78

There does seem to be something about being voted in as pope that helps your longevity, as popes have consistently outperformed their fellow Italians in the last three centuries. (It may be argued, and indeed has been, that JPI died of unnatural causes, in which case he can be removed from calculations under the acts of God/assassinations sub-clause introdued above.) Getting the job seems to have a positive effect on life expectancy, even for those who get it late, who have all gone on to live into their 80s.

So, no evidence that the cardinals expect Joe to peg out any time soon. A suggestion, though, perhaps, that, as highly intelligent folk well versed in PR, they might want to give the impression of choosing someone conservative while appearing to believe that he will not be around too long to strengthen the grip of the conservatives on the church.

48

“As to myself, the delay may be compared to a reprieve; for in confidence I tell you, (with the world it would obtain credit,) that my movements to the chair of government will be accompanied by feelings not unlike those of a culprit who is going to the place of his execution. So unwilling am I in the evening of life, nearly consumed in public cares, to quit a peaceful abode for an ocean of difficulties, without that competency of political skill, abilities and inclination, which are necessary to manage the helm.”

-George Washington, upon accepting his unanimous election as President of the United States (Source )
Conceited bastid.

49

I suspect he’s trying to show humility. Just like Charlemange did when he became Holy Roman Emporer.

I don’t believe it in either case(that “I didn’t want this”).

50

I’ll bet your heroes are Oliver Stone and Jim Garrison. :wink:

I’m not sure what great conspiracy you think they’re carrying out. They don’t have to answer to anyone. They don’t have to justify their actions. They just vote and come out and claim that God guided the election. I have seen no cardinals claiming that they were going to vote for a short-term pope. That speculation has been carried out by the outside commentators. (Note that the betting oddsmakers were favoring Ratzinger–and citing his age and conservatism–before the conclave. I rather doubt that Las Vegas, London, and Monaco were besieged by phone calls or e-mails from the cardinals before the election.)

51

OK-I’ll amend my post to say that 78 isn’t all that old–especially for someone whose every need is anticipated and carried out. Or am I wrong about that, too?

Sure, it comes thru that I have no love for the Roman Catholic Church-IMO, there is more wrong with it than right.

But for any Cardinal to steer policies etc as he did to claim that he does not want power and is a humble man etc is politics and PR. BS he didn’t want it–he is glad to see that his vision can be sustained thru his lifetime–afterall he isn’t sick until he’s dead.

I find it distasteful to speculate on how long he will live–it seems ghoulish to me. Suffice to say that the Church has made clear to those outside it that it is not willing to step into the 21st century; it values tradition over justice.

Fair enough, I suppose–but given that the Church has a huge impact world wide-I think that open disapproval should be shown–and that legislation should be enacted world wide to decrease the influence that the Church (or any religious body) has on social issues.

just my 2 cents-not enough to buy a novena (joke).

52

Knock me down with a feather! These guys are more media-savvy than we give them credit for - otherwordly though they may be…

Well…around 24 hours ago you were writing:

You certainly did your bit to fuel the speculation.

And jolly good sense it makes too, I might add. Who knows, Ollie may hire you to write the screenplay for his next epic: JAR.*

  • Josef Alois Ratzinger - might also have an airport named after him one day in Bavaria
53

That does it! I used to think that the modern vogue of vatican openness with the media was a refreshing change but whem I read of someone running with a comment like in this OP I shudder. Come on ! Who hasn’t experienced a myriad of confilicting feelings when facing a major change in their lives. Emotions evolve and oscillate and any assessment of a conclusion is only of value at that particular point in time. I really think this pope should cloister himself until he is trained in media savvy.

54

While others have said that nobody gets to be a Cardinal without having ambition, I’d say it’s equally true that nobody gets to be a Cardinal nowadays without having genuine faith. So I assume that Cardinal Ratzinger sincerely believed that the Conclave was carrying out the will of God when it chose him as the new Pope. So it’s entirely possible he may have genuinely not wanted the job while at the same time feeling obligated to accept it.

55

You obviously know very little about monarchy if you think a person can just abdicate because they don’t want the job. Edward VIII caused a HUGE scandal by doing so, and had his brother done the same thing, I doubt there the royal family would still be reigning today.

56

But surely you have to agree to run for the position first?

57

Not really. Just by having been made cardinal any time in the last 20 or 30 years your name is pretty much included in the “candidate” list.

58

But doesn’t one have to run for cardinal? I can feel an infinite regression coming on here.

What’s the official papal/curia/Roman Catholic position on predestination? Maybe it’s all been determined in advance and there’s nothing any cardinal or pope can do about it. (Except pray he’ll last more than 33 days in the job).

Yeah, okay. That was predestined too, I can hear some of you intoning.

59

That is because you appear to have some wind-up doll mentality of humanity that never allows a person to change their views as their position in the world changes.
Actually, while I am sure that there is a lot of politics involved in getting to be cardinal, (although I know a couple of guys who are on track to get there who are not actively seeking it), that is a separate issue from being chosen pope. What a guy might do in his 30s, 40s, and 50s to climb the rungs to become a “prince of the church” has more to do with wishing to have power to wield in his 50s and 60s. With over a hundred cardinals being constantly elevated and dying off through the years and only one pope being selected every 15 years or so, the odds are strongly against any individual being selected pope. Is it your contention that every single corporate vice-president really wants to be CEO? Do you think that no one can want one level of power and be satisfied with it without necessarily wanting the next higher position? (I’m sure glad I’m not in a line of succession above you at your corporation.)

I am not arguing that anyone gets to that position by shrinking from power, but the idea that they are all out there campaigning for the top job throughout their lives is simply not supported by the facts. And, as I noted earlier, a guy can be really eager to wield the power of being a cardinal in his 50s and 60s, then tire of the daily grind by the time he hits his 70s and be less desirous of power. (Note the Washington quote, above.) By every account I have read, not one of the last four popes really wanted the papacy and none campaigned for it. (There is safety in numbers, where one gets to have a lot of power but limited responsibility. The pope has ultimate responsibility, which is a whole separate situation.)

60

Actually, I suspect that Charlemange was quite sincere about not wanting the Imperial crown – because he was smart enough to see that the Pope had pulled a fast one on him. One moment, he was King of the Franks by right of birth and ruler of an empire by right of conquest; the next, he was Emperor by grace of the Pope. The prestige of the latter title was bound to degrade the former.