"There Have Been, On Average, 10 Mass Shootings In The U.S. Each Week This Year"

Case, yes. Holster? I don’t think that that is really safely secured. A holster in a case, sure.

A car is a bit harder to sneak off of private property and take into a public setting than a gun is. If someone can’t be trusted with a car in public, then they can’t have a car in public. If someone can’t be trusted to not bring a gun into the public, then they just can’t have a gun.

Give someone 3 chances to be violent with their guns before they are temporarily removed from their easy access? The whole point of a red flag law is that it is determined that they are not safe to have a gun.

I’d say that they should have to demonstrate that they can be trusted before giving them back in the first place.

I mean, we lock people up for that long or longer for being violent in their teens. I’m optimistic that people can change, that they can overcome their pasts, but it takes more than just time, it takes an actual commitment to want to be better.

The safety problem is that guns go bang when anyone pulls the trigger. Cars have keys that can be removed, cars are very difficult for children to operate.

Two solutions to this “unsolvable” problem is to properly secure your guns from access to children or thieves, and to make sure that only an authorized user can activate a gun.

The first is easy. If it is not on or directly supervised by an aware and sober adult, then it is locked in a gun safe.

The second would require a bit of work, but there have been attempts down this avenue, which are resisted by gun owners. The golden standard would be biometrics, but I can see how that can take a while before it is practical. I would be happy with a key that needs to be inserted before the safety can be disengaged. Maybe a removable trigger with a keylike connection.

But, we didn’t have airbags when cars were first created. Nor anti-lock brakes, or crumple zones, or a myriad other things that were never thought of by the early car makers.

Are you saying that the number of injuries and deaths from legitimate* self defense are greater than those through accidental or criminal use?

I don’t think I want to go much further down this and start a hijack unless we want another thread on it, but my impression was that those two states were the ones that had the most permissive of laws. Every state is different, so without knowing what state you are talking about, it’s hard to say.

Every bar serves alcohol with the expectation that most of their patrons are going to be driving on public roads afterwards. It is up to the patron and the tender to ensure that they have not had too much. As with any law, it is how well it is enforced that makes a difference. Lots of laws on the books don’t get enforced, so I’d assume that as long as you don’t cause injury or severe damage, driving drunk on a golf course gets a look the other way.

Would that include removing someone’s access to guns in the future?

If he wants treatment for the gunshot wound, he’s going to need to report it. Part of the report is to ask what happened, who shot you.

If he refuses to cooperate, then he would be the one charged with criminal negligence and have his access to guns removed. If he’s willing to do that for the guy that shot him, he’s a really good friend.

You can’t just have anything on your property. If your unregistered cars are leaking oil into the watershed, you are still going to be held responsible. I actually don’t care if you have a grenade launcher on your private property, as long as it doesn’t disturb the peace outside of your private property, and that you are held to a much higher standard of having to ensure the proper security of such dangerous devices.

If they are stolen and used off your property, then you should not be allowed to have them again until you have demonstrated that you are able to secure them.

If you sell them to someone who uses them in public, then you should face criminal charges.

*and by legitimate, I mean that the person left standing is the one who gets to tell the story, so there may be a number or illegitimate uses that get reported as legitimate.

They were responsible gun owners right up until the moment when they started shooting people.

Thanks for letting me know. I feel so relieved now.

I’ll get to the longer post in a bit once I’ve got a bit more time. But actually I included every current gun owner who will harm someone in the next 20 years in my post in order to get down to 99% so I’ve already ceded that those people are irresponsible.

Unless you can tell ahead of time whether they are responsible or not, that really doesn’t do much.


Really? Cars are incredibly easy to blend into the crowd of thousands of other on the road. That’s why we see such high levels of people driving on suspended license, without insurance, or without tags/expired registration. Sure that million dollar maserati isn’t blending in anywhere but the blue POS Ford Focus is just another car on the roads.

That certainly is why Red Flag were written or how they are implemented. The idea is that when a person is acting “off” and may hurt themselves or others the people around them can get their guns removed until the period passes. At least here in Colorado, at most, the guns can be taken away for a year. It’s important to note here that Red Flag laws are preventative and that the person they are used on has committed no crime. I’m proposing a slightly harsher version where, if the Red Flag law is invoked multiple times in a short time span the removal time gets longer.

Even if you taking away someone’s guns permanently for doing nothing was legal how would you propose someone demonstrate they could be trusted. Since as you’ve said since there is no way to tell which 0.05% of gun owners will hurt someone.

Ehh, criminal justice reform is a different topic but I’d rather execute non-reformable people on day 1 r once it becomes clear they can’t be let out and keep everyone else in jail until they’ve reformed but then grant them full rights the day they leave jail.

Car’s are exceedingly easy to hot wire any kid with a junior high level knowledge of electronics can get one running without the keys particularly when we’re talking about low end models. We used to steal cars for fun all the time in high school and just re-park them close to mess with people.

Sure. People are working on solutions to this and I’m not opposed to figuring out a way we can have 100% immediate success rate when an authorized user wants to pull the trigger and a 0% success rate when some random person wants to pull the trigger. I’m actually in favor of much more research on guns in general.

Ehh, kids are smarter than people think I was picking locks in junior high as well and making my own explosives to pop bike locks. Not that I’d against gun safes but they aren’t a 100% solution. But like I said finding better solutions are a great idea.

Criminal use is the correct person pulling the trigger and in most cases “accidental” just means the correct person pulled the trigger but didn’t know it was loaded. Didn’t we just go through this in another thread where multiple cases of “it just went off when I dropped it” were proven to be the gun owner rushing to pick it up and pulling the trigger or trying to catch the gun and grabbing the trigger?

The adult who claims ownership of the weapon was actually the one who pulled the trigger in a hugly large number of gun injuries, most crimes, most suicides, and most accidents, the remainder are the children we were just talking about preventing access too and the small number of stolen weapons (13% of the weapons used in crime are either stolen previously or found at the crime scene).

Ya, it’s very much a tangent. I’ll participate if you start a new thread though.

For some period of time? Yes. Forever? No.

He could just say someone he doesn’t like or that some random person popped out the bushes and opened fire. Or he could say he was drunk and doesn’t remember and then when you take him to court his buddy claims he shot him and when the buddy is taken to court the first guy claims he shot himself. Two people who are the only witnesses can get away with a lot of crimes.

Sure and if you can show that my vehicle, by existing is doing damage I can be ticketed or told to clean up the damage but on the other hand if you can’t show damage then it get to sit there.

That is very reasonable. I had a buddy that had one in college and we would go out to the middle of nowhere to blow up structures we built it was a ton of fun.

What could you mean by this that is different from what you’ve laid out for regular guns?

That doesn’t seem unreasonable though again I’d want to know what kind of demonstration could be sufficient for you.

Why? If I sell my semi shotgun and the next guy takes it out and kills three people I wouldn’t face charges why would it be different if I sold him my grenade launcher and he blew up three people and their car?

Why? It’s hard to tell if a gun is loaded or unloaded when it is in your holster.

You may not even know, if you forgot that you left one in the chamber.

Hard to blend in with a crowd at the mall. Hard to fit on the elevator at the office.

Actually, that’s because cars are so necessary for survival in our culture that people are willing to take the chance of driving when they are not permitted to do so. Saw a news program forever back, and they asked a guy, “What will you do if you can no longer legally drive?” His reply, “Then I guess I’ll illegally drive.”

Guns aren’t quite the same. You don’t use a gun to get to work, or to the store, or to pick your kids up from school.

As you say, we see them doing so, we catch them and we punish them, even if their action is simply being too poor or otherwise unable to fulfill the bureaucratic side of car operation, but otherwise are a perfectly safe driver. As far as registration, that’s something that you can see from the outside of the car. A cop upon seeing a car knows who it belongs to, whether it is up to date on registration, and to some extent if it is insured.

Would you get behind wearing a registration badge if you are carrying in public? Would you get behind severe punishments for carrying unlicensed, unregistered, or uninsured guns in public?

Did you just call my car a POS? :face_with_raised_eyebrow:

But you admit your caveat… “on the roads.” There are lots of places you can take a gun that you can’t take a car. A gun is far more concealable than a car. As part of driving on the road, you can be pulled over, you must provide ID and proof of registration and insurance. If you are seen carrying a gun in most places, you don’t have to do any of these things, and that is if you are seen, and it’s not concealed.

Hit reply way too soon…

Traffic offenses are not crimes, and yet, you can have your license taken away.

Time doesn’t automatically change someone for the better. I would propose actual tests and psychological counseling.

I don’t think that it is possible to make that distinction. Just was watching the Daily Show the other night, and they had someone on that was 14 when he was sentenced to life.

He seemed to have redeemed himself, but the justice system thought he never would.

I don’t know about the day they leave jail. Leaving jail is the first step in letting them work their way back into society. They should get them back once they’ve completed parole or probation, but they should generally go through a period of that first.

They really aren’t, not anymore. Maybe the cars that you have on your lot. But that excuse doesn’t really work. If your kid is a master safecracker, then you wouldn’t be liable if they got ahold of your guns. Just because there is the possibility that someone may defeat a form of security doesn’t mean that it shouldn’t be implemented to prevent the 99% of those who can’t at bay.

Do you lock your doors? If so, why bother, as most locks are actually pretty easy to defeat?

a 99% solution is better than a 0% solution. I don’t know that many toddlers that are safecrackers. Your local meth head knows to check your couch cushions and your nightstand and your desk drawer for your gun. They can be in and out in minutes and you never know it. If they have to go for your safe they are much more likely going to be dissuaded because of the time it will take and noise it will make in trying to get in.

But if criminals shouldn’t have guns, then they were not the correct person to have the gun in the first place.

In some cases, sure, but about once a week, the person pulling the trigger is a toddler.

Sure, most guns won’t go off just from being dropped, but it still doesn’t really matter to someone who gets shot by an accidental discharge whether it went off because it hit the ground or it went off because the trigger was accidently pulled in trying to catch it or pick it up.

I think that we should try to do something about that.

And 43% of them are bought illegally off-the street or underground market.

How did those get into circulation in the first place, do you think?

So, a false accusation? That’s not without consequence.

Not that ballistics is an exact science, but a bullet can be traced back to a gun often enough that I’d be worried about making such a lie to the police. They may not find out that you lied and sent them on an illegitimate manhunt, but they also might.

But sure, if people are willing to lie and face steep consequences if they get caught, they can sometimes get away with it.

Middle of nowhere? Or someone’s private property upon which you had permission that happened to be in a remote location?

A much higher level of due diligence. If someone steals your .22 from your nightstand, you should get in a bit of trouble. If someone steals your M203 from your unsecured shed, you should get in a whole lot more.

Owning the proper storage systems would be a good start.

Did you do a background check?

Because it is a grenade launcher that can pose a much greater threat to the public, a higher level of diligence on your part should be expected.

There is a reason why such things are illegal in the first place.

I will stay out of this.

I bailed on this thread a while ago, and haven’t been keeping up. Just dropped in with…

Seven people are dead and 33 others injured following four separate late night and early morning mass shootings in Ohio, South Carolina and New Jersey, authorities said Sunday.

The dead include two girls, ages 14 and 16, police said. …

A house party in Cumberland County, New Jersey, was one of the most violent events, in terms of victims. There, state police say, a 30-year-old man and a 25-year-old woman were fatally shot and 12 other adults were taken to area hospitals for gunshot wounds sustained just before midnight Saturday. …

In South Carolina, a 14-year-old girl was fatally shot and 13 others wounded after a fight broke out at an unauthorized outdoor concert taking place around 10:30 p.m. …

A few hours later, around 2 a.m. Sunday, a shooting outside a bar in Youngstown, Ohio, left three people dead and three others wounded…

Not interested in nitpicky quibbling over the finer points of the word mass in “mass shootings.” Carry on.

Graphic in the New York Times today. Partial list.

Another one today. I haven’t kept up with this thread, but I think there has been at least one every day since my last post on May 26. Maybe I’m wrong. I hope so.

A gunman shot and killed a woman and a toddler before fatally shooting himself inside a Publix grocery store in Palm Beach County, Fla., on Thursday morning, the authorities said.

Deputies from the Palm Beach County Sheriff’s Office found their bodies near the produce section when they entered the store, in Royal Palm Beach, just before 11:40 a.m., a Sheriff’s Office spokeswoman said.

The names of the victims and the gunman were not immediately released, but the spokeswoman, Teri Barbera, said that the woman and the toddler were related.

The child, a boy, would have turned 2 later this month, she said.

AUSTIN, Texas (AP) — A shooting in a busy entertainment district in downtown Austin, Texas, injured 13 people early Saturday, and police said the suspected shooter was not in custody.

Two of the injured people were in critical condition but as of the news conference at 4 a.m. local time, no one had died, interim Austin Police Chief Joseph Chacon said.

Gunfire erupted just before 1:30 a.m. along 6th Street, a popular area filled with bars and restaurants.

Sixth Street is sort of the Bourbon Street of Austin.

The solution to stuff like this: make sure every person is carrying a gun, either concealed or out in the open! And those guns had better be loaded, amirite, Gov. Abbott?

As a Canadian who visits the US on occassion I truly believe that open-carry should be mandatory and the only option.

I would genuinely prefer to know, unambiguously, who’s actually carrying

I would probably decrease the number of people carrying guns legally. I know several people that carry concealed but won’t open carrying because they feel it makes them target and more likely to be the first person in the crowd shot.

On the other hand it can be very difficult to tell if someone is carrying concealed so I’d guess a chunk of the people who choose to not open carry would continue to concealed carry and there would be no way to tell unless they were involved with the cops for other reasons.

How about if you carry one gun openly and conceal a couple more somewhere on your person? Win-win!

Now that’s what I’m talking about! Someone could start making special liners for sports jackets for extra mags, scopes and bipods as well.:grinning:


AUSTIN, Texas (AP) — A man has died from his injuries following a mass shooting on a crowded downtown Austin street that left more than a dozen people injured, police said Sunday.

Chacon said at least one suspect was arrested. The department provided no other details other than to say it is continuing to follow up on leads for a second suspect who is still at large. An investigation is ongoing.

The mass shooting — one of at least three in the U.S. overnight Saturday — sparked panic along 6th Street, a popular nightlife destination in the city that’s home to the University of Texas.

My bold.

This article has me baffled. It identifies the dead man as the suspect in the shooting:

"One person is dead and 13 others were injured in a mass shooting in Austin’s downtown entertainment district early Saturday.

“The Austin Police Department identified the slain suspect as Douglas John Kantor, 25, after he succumbed to his injuries Sunday afternoon.”

That’s at the top of the article, and it’s repeated underneath his picture later in the article. Is this a massive, massive fuck-up on their part? Or are they implying that this guy was involved in the shooting???

The shootings have come at a relentless pace. Gun violence this year has cut through celebrations and funerals, places of work and houses of worship. It has taken lives at a grocery store and in a fast-food drive-through lane.

By almost every measure, 2021 has already been a terrible year for gun violence. And many fear it will get worse. Last weekend alone, more than 120 people died in shootings, according to the Gun Violence Archive, with three especially dangerous incidents in Austin, Chicago and Savannah, Ga., killing two and injuring at least 30.

Through the first five months of 2021, gunfire killed more than 8,100 people in the United States, about 54 lives lost per day, according to a Washington Post analysis of data from the Gun Violence Archive, a nonprofit research organization. That’s 14 more deaths per day than the average toll during the same period of the previous six years.

“I’m scared to death of the summer, I’ll be real honest,” said Mark Bryant, Gun Violence Archive’s founder. “I expect this to be a record year.”

Beam me up, Scottie. I’ve had it. :anguished: