This really burns me! The whole point of the First Amendment is to protect the minority in specified cases. In general, the majority rules, but the majority can’t stop someone from speaking his mind, reporting the facts, pursuing his faith (or lack of it), etc. Unfortunately, it seems many Americans share your ignorance of this principle: http://www.freedomforum.org/news/2000/06/2000-06-29-02.asp.
Oh and one more thing - Myrr, if I weren’t already taken, I would ask you to marry me in a strictly civil ceremony, in accordance with humanistic principles. You’ve said almost everything I’ve thought while reading this thread!
Well, I’m sure that’s not true–especially given that women still can’t be ordained by the Roman Catholic church. According to it’s followers, Islam is very egalitarian. Personally, I kinda doubt this–but they may be correct and the current treatment of women is just an abberation (just as the use of the Bible to justify slavery was an abberation). But what about Buddhism? Granted, there is no creator/diety, but it’s an older and more widely practiced religion than Christianity, and it is very egalitarian, and has been for a long time.
On another note–there’s a reasona why the majority doesn’t always rule here. Do you notice that 2/3 of Congress and 3/4 of states are required to Amend the Constitution? That’s because the majority can be oppresive. I also find it ironic that you cite other countries where religion is involved in the state, and point out how unpleasant life is there compared to here. That’s exactly the point. Granted, the 10C are a small thing, but they are a small * offensive * thing, that could lead to larger oprression.
We’ve been protected from a misguided majority–why should we sacrifice that? Besides, have you noticed the vomitous way religion has been worked into politics? Candidates have to prove how devout they are. That’s just sickening–their faith is their issue and noone else’s. Same goes for government as a whole–if religion is about a person and their Creator/diety/whatever, then it should stay between them, and not infringe upon my happiness.
Crap, that link is messed up because I put a period at the end of the sentence. Sorry.
Let me also take the opportunity to note that Drainthelizard seems to be lumping Catholics and other Christians together in support of his stance on posting the Ten Commandments on state property, but Catholics have a different Decalogue than Protestants - they don’t include the graven images one. So the question is not even as simple as “whose God?” but also comes to “whose Commandments?”
Correct me if I am wrong, but the news article I read about this said they aren’t trying to pay to create a Ten Commandment monument. What I read the monument was a gift to the state and had been in place for quite a while. It was removed about three years ago for construction on the capital building, or some such thing. The article stated they were just trying to bring it out of storage and replace it as it had been before. If the base argument is why are they paying for a monument of this type, the answer is, they aren’t.
All of you need to attend history class, ESPECIALLY DTL!
Algebra was invented in India around 500 AD, but it was perfected in its modern form by the Arabs. Al’Khwarizmi, whose full name is Abu Abd-Allah ibn Musa al’Khwarizmi, was born about AD 790 near Baghdad, and died about 850. His most important contribution, written in 830, was Hisab al-jabr w’al-muqabala. From the al-jabr in the title, we get algebra.
After the fall of the Western half of the Roman Empire in 476 AD, the eastern half became what we know as the Byzantine Empire, so they came after Christ, not before.
Islam teaches that all believers are equal in the eyes of Allah. During the Haj in Mecca, all pilgrims, no matter how rich or poor they might be at home, wear the same white garments and live together in total equality.
The Buddha explained that a man’s virtues or vices depend on his deeds, not his birth or wealth. One who comes to be
ordained in Buddhism has equal rights such as the right to vote in meetings. The only difference is the order of seniority which goes according to the precedence in ordination.(from http://www.mahamakuta.inet.co.th/english/question.htm)
I don’t time or space to give you an education in constitutional law, DTL, so I’ll just quote Stone vs. Graham
at you.
Wrong, DTL. I have no problem with a creche at Christmas, but posting the Ten Commandments clearly violates the Establishment Clause. Putz.
Thanks for proving my point there, goboy. I’m not a history expert (or an expert at anything else) but I know whereof I speak on this topic.
“All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God” is a quote from the Bible. That’s ALL, believers and non-believers alike. So there goes Islam.
“No man cometh unto the Father but by me” was said by Jesus himself. This means that believing in him is the only way to salvation. It has nothing to do with deeds, or anything else that is easily within the power of mankind. It is by the grace of God. SO there goes Buddhism.
Myrr21- I too am disgusted at the way religion is used by politicians these days.
oldscratch- I was going to write a long, serious response to your last post, but then I popped over to Great Debates, where you posted that the Pentagon has agents in major newsrooms. (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=32452) So now I’m just going to enjoy your posts as humor. By the way, tinfoil hatswill protect you from the mind-altering rays broadcast by the Illuminati.
I WILL respond to the following about how in Christianity all men are on an equal footing before the deity: “PURE AND UTTER BULLSHIT. Budhism, Shitoism, Judaism, Islam, other assorted small relgions and sects. All believe the same thing.”
I’m not terribly familiar with Judaism and Islam, so I can’t address them. But I know Buddhism has no deity, and Shintoism is ancestor worship-polytheism at best. So they couldn’t possibly believe in what I said.
Go get a life, oldscratch. And make sure no CIA agents aren’t tailing you.
Well, to just straighten things out, I was not calling you a bigot. I was hoping to draw Danielinthewolvesden further into the debate and get clarification as to which parts of your post he agreed with and which he didn’t. I just went about it the wrong way.
I’m trying really hard to stay away from name-calling, since I see this as an exchange of ideas, and not anything personal.
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Ok, I can agree that the Roman Catholic church was the only institution that kept readinga nd writing alive in Europe, but I’m pretty sure that Scandavians had written languages and kept up literacy. I’ll have to ask my friend from Finland a bit more on that.
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The reason I brought up Buddhism was because I recall that according to at least one of the legends the religion started because a prince was upset by the caste-like system. However, since I don’t know much about Buddhism, I’ll concede this point.
However, just because the idea of universal equality started with Christianity, isn’t it reasonable to think that other religions have evolved to also accept the concept today?
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Yes, and India is a good example of where the combination of Church and State has run amok.
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Another excellent example of why Church and State mixing is a bad thing.
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The problem is, as usual, where do we draw the line. For some Ten Commandments is enough, for others they want Ten Commandments and mandatory prayer in schools. The still others want those two things AND creationsim taught in the schools. In the eyes of the laws, as they are currently written, a piece meal approach to Church and State is not possible. The only way is to prove that the Ten Commandments is a historical document. That point of view hasn’t exactly stood up in many courts. I’ll have to read into it some more.
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The problem is that you would have to represent the religion of every person in the US. The government does not belong to the majority, it belongs to everyone.
Hell, you have one person in this thread that does not see their religion being represented by posting the Ten Commandments.
We constantly are walking on a fine line between the government “reflecting” the majority to the government “favoring” the majority religion. It is a line we have crossed in the past, and if we’re not careful, a line we will cross again.
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When you allow the majority to represent their religion above all, then it is the minority that risks having their freedom of religion curtailed.
I work for a company that has liberal ideas on religion and will work to accomodate other faiths. So I’m curious, is this pretty universal now? Can a state worker take off Yom Kippur? Or are all religions held to a Christian holiday scheldule?
Since no one else has mentioned this, one of the main tenets of Islam is giving alms to the poor(Zakat http://www.submission.org/zakat.html ), right up there with praying 5 times a day, a pilgrimage to Mecca etc.
All men are on an equal footing? Does that include gays?women? What about Southern Baptists & Mormons who think that women should be subservient to men? What if those christians got to make all the laws? I would be on the first flight out of here.
Many of the same men who wrote the D of I and Constitution were also slaveowners, are you suggesting that they were right about everything? This country was founded 200 years ago. Times change, and our interpretations of these documents are going to change.
Face it,this is a secular society and posting the 10 commandments is not going to change anything. It’s just going to aggravate us atheists & non-JudeoChristians.
Bull. Most Classical literature would have been lost to the West forever had it not been for Islamic scholars who had preserved manuscripts.
Bull. One of the five pillars of Islam is zakat, or giving alms. Buddhists give charity to atone sin and release some of their karmic burden.
and those are arguments FOR an established religion?
It’s not just the Ten Commandments. Nobody anywhere can put anything of a religious nature on a public site, building, whatever.
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You can post the 10 C. on the front of your house, no problem. There is a difference between private property and public property.
Which God? Should we have religious qualifications for holding public office? We used to. Should we bar Catholics and Jews from holding office? We used to. Should we require people to give a tithe of their income to support the Church? We used to. The Establishment Clause of the First Amendment serves to preserve the freedom of Americans to worship in their own way. Our Founding Fathers wished to preserve our nation from the tyranny of a state religion that stifled freedom of thought.
Our national culture, our language, and institutions were inherited from England. I certainly feel more comfortable with Christianity than I do with Hinduism or Islam, but to say that Christianity is virtuous and other religions are not, shows that you are ignorant of those religions. In addition, leave the pro-Western European culture rants to people who know what they’re talking about.
Worst of all, you made me agree with Oldscratch on a topic. I believe Hell just froze over.
Yes, I agree. The country has changed. But this debate to me was always about the core belief system, not how closely it has been followed through the ages. And according to the core beliefs of Christianity, ALL of the people you mention are sinners in the eyes of God. None has any more fght to salvation than any other. Of course, your average Baptist would scream bloody murder if they heard this, but the Bible’s pretty clear on the subject.
Yes, I agree. The country has changed. But this debate to me was always about the core belief system, not how closely it has been followed through the ages. And according to the core beliefs of Christianity, ALL of the people you mention are sinners in the eyes of God. None has any more right to salvation than any other. Of course, your average Baptist would scream bloody murder if they heard this, but the Bible’s pretty clear on the subject.
What is a loser?
Someone who posts a thread asking if they are a loser hoping to get reasuring responses from other posters that they are not. At least I don’t need to get validations for my existence from a message board drainthefuck. I could go and give you the link to news story on pentagon agents in the Newsroom. It was widely reported in the european press. But, I’ve already done that a while ago on this message boards. and I really don’t feel like wasting my time on people who lie to try and make a point. Go back to masturbating about ugly women with large breasts and leave the rest of us alone.
As a person who was raised in the Hindu faith, I would have to say that I would have no problem with the 10C being posted in a school. Why? One of the most basic tenets of Hinduism (and Buddhism, by the way) is “don’t just accept it, learn from it.”
True followers of both religions are encouraged to study and accept other world religions, to the point of traveling to the places where those religions are primarily practiced, and living among the faithful. Therefore, a Hindu (or Buddhist) would have no problem with living in a predominately Christian country (like the States), and following the faith. All paths lead to the same end… only some ways are quicker than others (for lazy people like me )
This, isn’t however, how it is, for people, through their innate evil natures have corrupted what began as pure belief systems. What does this have to do with the separation of religion and state? . People choose how they act, and they interpret what is presented to them in an individual manner. Why prevent the flow of information?
What I’m trying to say (in my long-winded manner) is that yes, the 10C should be posted in schools. I’m with those of you who want to post the tenets of other religions as well.
But in all respects… be accepting, whether you worship the Judeo-Christian God, Satan, Vishnu, Buddha, Allah, the IPU, or even a bowl of instant Jell-O Pudding, be aware that other faiths are just as valid as your own, and that no voice should be silenced (no matter how shitforbrained you may think that voice is). DTL was trying to say his piece. Although he went about it in something of a confrontational matter, it was unnecessary for some of you to leap down his throat (yeah, yeah, yeah, it’s the Pit, whatever). He has as much of a right to be sarcastic and assholish as you have to tell him to go felch his mother.
Umm, hey guy, Buddhism does not involve the worship of Buddha…
Dtl: you are pissing me off now. You have just said that all other faiths are dead wrong, and thrown some Biblical quotes in there. you know what this is a sign of? It is the sign of a close-minded bigot losing an argument.
Do better than that, or nobody will take you seriously (assuming they do already).
I don’t understand. You have already stated that Christianity is a more “moral” religion than any other, that Christianity is the only religion that chooses equality, that stresses charity, and then you admit that you don’t actually know anything about the other two major Western religions? So were you just pulling things out of your ass previously? Please explain.
As previously mentioned, zakaat, or giving of alms, is one of the five pillars of Islam. This means that to be a good Muslim, one absolutely must give charity. Judaism doesn’t have such a formalized rule, but tzedakah is an important part of what it means to be a good Jew. In fact, tzedakah comes from the word “tzedek” or “righteous.”
I highly recommend that you actually attempt to learn something about a subject before you state opinions on it. Othwise, you come off looking like an ignorant moron.
Well, actually, I agreed with very little of DtL’s 1st post. I just thought it was pretty well done sarcasm.
But let us go over a few points, 1st egalitarianism: The Western, ie Christian nations are far more egalitarian than the Muslim or Hindu nations. It does not matter what the Koran actually sez on this issue, what matters is how the Religous leaders interpret it, and they, to a large extent, interpret it as saying women have very few rights. Now it is true, that some “Christian” Churchs attempt to do the same thing, BUT, when they do they are mostly ignored by the Secular authorities, and mocked by everyone else. Athlo the Catholics & Mormons have not done so yet, nearly every other major Christian sect has women as priests. (mine does, for eg, and so does the Episcopalians). I beleive the Hindu religion does in there female goddesses. Now, this may be the result of Western CULTURE as opposed to Christian religion, but the religion is certainly part of the culture.
Next, the saving of literacy: DtL has a point, sorta. There is a book, which is very popular, and mostly accepted “How the Irish Saved Civilization”, by Thomas Cahill. It recounts how the Celtic Church (shameless plug for my Church here) preserved a lot of Western history & Culture, thru-out the Dark Ages, and also helped to preserve literacy. However, the Muslims, as has been pointed out, did the same for mathematics, etc. So DtL has a point, here, but not a conclusive one.
But, again, I do not feel the 10C should be posted on public property, UNLESS as a “historic” document, in proper context.
So, I was not so much defending DtLs points, as to his right to bring them up, without all the hatred and personal attacks, which were unessesary. If some of you had been more mature, this would have made a good “GD”.
Umm…where did I say all other religions are dead wrong? I threw in the Biblical quotes to illustrate what Christians (supposedly) believe. How does this make me bigoted? And I knew that losing this argument was a forgone conclusion. Very few people see the way I do. Why I continue to argue my point of view I’ll never know. It’s hard to argue with six people at once. But if I gave up now I’d be knuckling under to peer pressure.
goboy- I said “reading and writing.” Not “literature.” So the giving of alms is one of the main pillars of Islam? Fine. So who’s the Muslim Mother Theresa? How many Muslim missionaries travel to the poorest and most remote regions of the world to try to help the people there? I’m not saying none do, but enlighten me. I’d really like to know.
oldscratch- He He! You are funny! My other thread has nothing to do with anything, especially THIS thread.
DTL: In Islam there are no celebrities like Mother Teresa that the Western World would recognize. Yet the general population takes the idea of charity, “zakaat”, very seriously.
Usually a family gives 2-5% of the yearly salary to charity, but this can vary depending upon income. I lived in the Middle East for 7 years and this was done by virtually all Muslims.
You’re not a loser, but you need to learn how to construct an argument.
It isn’t very wise to bring up a charged topic by addressing it with sarcasm. It also doesn’t help when you make very broad assertions and then either make claims that are wrong or describe situations that are complex.
