Things are getting better. That's what I told my daughter.

The BBQ Pit
101

[QUOTE=Kalhoun]
From your original post:

The two statements could easily be interpreted as being directed toward HOLIDAY HELP. Go fuck yourself.
[/QUOTE]

Nah, I can’t buy this as likely at all. I’d interpret this as racist slur, with a high degree of confidence, even with the more limited information set forth in the OP. I don’t think that the OP or her daughter miscontrued this.

On the (thankfully rare) occasions I’ve heard someone use the phrase “You people” or (the slightly more common) “Those people”, it meant one of three things. 95% of the time it was a reference to the target’s race or ethnic group. Maybe 4% of the time it was a reference to religion. (e.g “Catholics? Those people have too many kids” or “You’re Jewish? How come you people reject Jesus?”) That leaves about 1% of the time where the reference was to class.
As it’s likely that the rude shopper would have no way of knowing the daugther’s religion, interpreting it as a racial reference seems reasonable. If I were Biggirl, I’d be upset on behalf of my daughter

The only other remote possibility that comes to mind wouldn’t apply unless the rude shopper was a Paris Hilton-like stuck-up rich bitch sneering at those who work retail.

IMO, “you people” isn’t a plausibly a reference to age, status as Christmas help, or the other things that some have suggested.

That said, I caught the veiled accusation of racism thrown at Kalhoun, and thought it was uncalled-for. Just because he didn’t see it the same way you did (or I do), that doesn’t make him a racist.

102

Psst! Kalhoun is one of us women with masculine usernames.

103

[QUOTE=monstro]
Don’t play coy, AD. You know what “insinuation” means and you know damn well your post was dripping with it. Why else would you think you were going to get in “trouble”?
[/quote]

Because I always get in trouble for offering a dissenting viewpoint in threads about “hot-button” topics.

Sure they do. Because words can have different meanings to different people, it could be a matter of misunderstanding, and while I have no doubt that those words were taken as a racist slur (thus not questioning the sincerity of Biggirl’s daughter), a person can on reading the words have a doubt whether they were in fact racist as they could be a frustrated criticism of customer service-type employees as a whole, as they were when they were directed at me (which I alluded to previously).

I didn’t backpedal. You took my words to mean what you wanted them to mean. Thank you for proving my point. And to be more pointed, do NOT attribute words to me that I never said, especially ones as charged as those.

104

This is so depressing, to see the wingnuts like Kalhoun be shameless enough to even debate the reality of the situation expressed in the OP, as if everything’s a liberal conspiracy. What a bunch of dishonest assholes you guys are, who’ve once again exposed your true stripes in this thread. The only person who could read the OP and insist that there’s any interpretation other than racism is showing more sympathy to the racist than grasp on reality. And who would deny reality to show sympathy for a racist? Another racist. You people make me sick.

105

[QUOTE=monstro]
Psst! Kalhoun is one of us women with masculine usernames.
[/QUOTE]

Ooops. Sorry. You people are so confusing!

106

[QUOTE=lissener]
This is so depressing, to see the wingnuts like Kalhoun be shameless enough to even debate the reality of the situation expressed in the OP, as if everything’s a liberal conspiracy. What a bunch of dishonest assholes you guys are, who’ve once again exposed your true stripes in this thread. The only person who could read the OP and insist that there’s any interpretation other than racism is showing more sympathy to the racist than grasp on reality. And who would deny reality to show sympathy for a racist? Another racist. You people make me sick.
[/QUOTE]

Even though I think that the OP’s interpretation is almost certainly correct, and I reject most of the contrary suggestions that other people have made here, I’m a racist? Just because I comment that nothing that she’s said here proves that Kalhoun is a racist?

Shit. Lissener’s on to me. He must have spotted my hood when I dropped it off at the laundry. (I knew I was taking a risk. But those people get clothes so clean!)

107

See, this is the kind of thing that happens so frequently around here, and it’s just bullshit.

None of you were there.

You think you can pick over the dry words on a screen and then authoritatively “interpret” the secret intentions of everyone involved.

Just because the language might, when viewed on a screen or a piece of paper, be tortuously interpreted in *possibly *a different way from the way the OP has expressed it, isn’t proof that your armchair interpretation is correct.

How fucking useful is it to point out the obvious fact that words on a page can usually be interpreted in more than one way? How fucking much does it contribute to such a discussion to point out this obvious fact?

My post above doesn’t discount the variables of language; my post above suggests that if you’re going to marry yourself to an interpretation sympathetic to a racist, when the 90% likely interpretation of the words in question supports the feelings of the person who was personally involved in the incident, then your motivation cannot be merely academic.

If all you’re saying is that it’s possible for the words to be intepreted differently, than you’re not necessarily a racist, just an asshole with nothing to contribute. If you’re saying that it’s less than 90% likely that *these * words, in *this *instance, could be interpreted as non-racist, then you’re a dishonest fuck and, yes, probably a racist.

108

[QUOTE=Biggirl]

Let me give you the conversation as completely as my daughter related it to me.

Customer (indicating a sweater she had not yet purchased): There’s a stain on this sweater.

My daughter: I’m sorry. Would you like to go get another?

Customer: There are no others like this one. Why would you have a sweater with a stain on it on display?

My daughter: I’m sorry (they are trained to apologize no matter what) but I don’t really see a stain. But if you don’t want the sweater. . .

Customer: Of course YOU people would wear a piece of crap like that.

My daughter: Would you like me to ring up your other items? Yes? Do you want a single gift receipt or one for each?

Customer: Of course I want one receipt, I don’t know how it is YOU people shop but I don’t walk around with thousands of receipts.

My daughter rings everything up and puts two blouses on one gift receipt.

Customer: Well, only one blouse is a gift! How am I supposed to give this as a gift?

My daughter: I’m sorry but once the gift receipt is made I can’t make another.

Customer: I don’t even know why they let YOU people behind a cash register! YOU people may like to give gifts as classless as that but I would never do such a thing. Just take everything back!

As my daughter rang up the refund, the customer continued her tirade against YOU people. Calling YOU people classless, stupid and unable to do the simplest tasks. And if YOU people believe she meant anything but YOU black people, YOU people are all naive.
[/QUOTE]

I just can’t read the “you people” here as anything but racist. Biggirl, sorry you daughter had to deal with that. Though, to clarify, at what point was the manager called in, and why? The whole deal seems to be that the woman wanted a discount on the stained sweater, but then she thinks it’s “crap”, so not sure, here, what the dispute was, exactly.

From monstro

I’m going to go out on a limb and coin the term “nig-r-adar”. If that’s obnoxious, let me know. I’m white, femme, 40’s, so have lived through this hopefully soon passing era of idiot discontent race-wise. I’ve had the blessing of time well-spent with the Black community in Mississippi, and had my eyes well and gratefully opened to racist situations in the South. “YOU people”, yep, I totally get it, my nig-r-adar would be on high alert . I suppose the only grace, Biggirl is that there is enough progress that your daughter didn’t have to be subjegated to what Usta Be, "You N-word"s. So, it’s been diluted to “You people”, small progress.

109

Well, as I said upthread, I think people tend to do it at least partly just to get an argument going, because arguing is more fun than agreeing.

Such behavior is admittedly rather pointless in the grand scheme of things, but so is much else of what we do around here. O tempora, o mores or something.

110

[QUOTE=lissener]
This is so depressing, to see the wingnuts like Kalhoun be shameless enough to even debate the reality of the situation expressed in the OP, as if everything’s a liberal conspiracy. What a bunch of dishonest assholes you guys are, who’ve once again exposed your true stripes in this thread. The only person who could read the OP and insist that there’s any interpretation other than racism is showing more sympathy to the racist than grasp on reality. And who would deny reality to show sympathy for a racist? Another racist. You people make me sick.
[/QUOTE]

Yawn. I am not a wingnut nor do I see any conspiracy. To make this short, I am none of the things you are accusing me of being. I have been in the situation in retail, customer service and sales where the phrase “you people” has been said to me countless times. I have never thought or felt that it was meant racially, religiously or anything else about me specifically. I have also had people call me a stupid faggot in similar situations and in those cases I am 100% certain that it was meant as a personal insult.

Just because someone has a different interpretation based on the same information does not make them dishonest or a racist. The followup to the OP giving a more complete version of what happened does indeed sound racist, I do not disagree with that at all.

111

Dude, if you’re a white woman and you use the phrase “you people,” repeatedly, when chewing out a young AA wage slave, you mean it racially. EOS. Any further discussion is suspiciously motivated dissembling.

112

Wow, what an asshole.

[QUOTE=lissener]
None of you were there.

You think you can pick over the dry words on a screen and then authoritatively “interpret” the secret intentions of everyone involved.
[/quote]

Yet you can look the same type of “dry words on screen” and authoritatively uncover racism?

What, did someone hand you a list?

You’re not just an asshole, you’re a stupid, hypocritical one.

This doesn’t make any sense at all. If I say that it’s less than 90% likely that the words were non-racist (and I do – as I said before, I think it’s less than 1% likely that some other meaning was meant), that makes me dishonest and a racist?

What? Do you want to try again? This time saying the words aloud and thinking before you post?

113

I have to repeat, I’m a white girl with little insight into such things, but the racism involved in the incident was clear and unambigious to me from Biggirls first post. I ran it by my friend and he agreed You People = racist.

People are welcome to disagree, but a little sensitivity would be nice. Perhaps I need to be less het up, but when a person of colour tells me they’ve been descriminated against or had an encounter with a bigot I take them at their word. If only because as a white woman I have the advantage of being in the majority, and thus seldom or never the object of racism as described in the OP. For that reason, I would never think of assuming that from my position of ignorace I could tell a person of colour - who had most likely experienced rude people and rude RACIST people and could probably tell the difference - that their experience was wrong.

That being said, I’m certainly not going to accuse anyone in this thread of being a racist either. I’m just suggesting that if you’re coming from a position of ignorance, at least be a little sensitive when expression your opinion - I’ve noticed that lacking by many posts in this thread.

114

Look. Asshole. Retard.

This is a real world situation, with real world people. They were there, they say it was racism.

All you’re doing is strapping on some angel wings and doing a tapdance on the head of a pin: you’re just debating this in the abstract, as an academic exercise. Your entire position is “Anything is possible; anything can be debated into the ground until everyone involved just wants to shoot themselves to stop the sound of my voice.”

That makes you a boor and an asshole. If your motivation is not drily academic–i.e., if you’re not just a boor and an asshole–and you have some personal reason for sympathizing more with the racist than with the teenage girl whose been hated upon, then you’re more than likely a racist, boorish asshole.

I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt, however, and assume you’re just a boorish asshole.

115

[QUOTE=lissener]
Look. Asshole. Retard.

This is a real world situation, with real world people. They were there, they say it was racism.

All you’re doing is strapping on some angel wings and doing a tapdance on the head of a pin: you’re just debating this in the abstract, as an academic exercise. Your entire position is “Anything is possible; anything can be debated into the ground until everyone involved just wants to shoot themselves to stop the sound of my voice.”

That makes you a boor and an asshole. If your motivation is not drily academic–i.e., if you’re not just a boor and an asshole–and you have some personal reason for sympathizing more with the racist than with the teenage girl whose been hated upon, then you’re more than likely a racist, boorish asshole.

I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt, however, and assume you’re just a boorish asshole.
[/QUOTE]
THis was, of course, intended for the asshole, Random, and not the voice of reason, Alice.

116

[QUOTE=alice_in_wonderland]
I have to repeat, I’m a white girl with little insight into such things, but the racism involved in the incident was clear and unambigious to me from Biggirls first post. I ran it by my friend and he agreed You People = racist.

People are welcome to disagree, but a little sensitivity would be nice. Perhaps I need to be less het up, but when a person of colour tells me they’ve been descriminated against or had an encounter with a bigot I take them at their word. If only because as a white woman I have the advantage of being in the majority, and thus seldom or never the object of racism as described in the OP. For that reason, I would never think of assuming that from my position of ignorace I could tell a person of colour - who had most likely experienced rude people and rude RACIST people and could probably tell the difference - that their experience was wrong.

That being said, I’m certainly not going to accuse anyone in this thread of being a racist either. I’m just suggesting that if you’re coming from a position of ignorance, at least be a little sensitive when expression your opinion - I’ve noticed that lacking by many posts in this thread.
[/QUOTE]

Well done. I think you’ve said it all.

Bolding mine, in case anyone missed that part of her post.

117

“You people” would have sounded pretty damn racist to me in this context, whether I was the salesclerk or someone witnessing the exchange. And for what it’s worth, I worked in a restaurant for about five years and my sister worked retail for about the same length of time; I just checked with her, and neither of us can ever remember being called “you people” by a customer. Called other choice things, yes, but not “you people.”

And dude, lay off Biggirl. She posted a rant, later came in to clarify the rant, and got a nice “go fuck yourself” in response. Jesus Christ. I’d have been upset too, if it had happened to my kid, and I doubt I would have bothered to post the entire conversation verbatim in my first post. This isn’t debate club; it’s the Pit.

118

Honestly?

It’s bad if the customer meant “you lazy undertrained minimum-wage slave”. It’s significantly worse if the customer intended a racial slur.

Either way, it’s shitty behaviour all around, and the customer badly needed a smackdown.

119

[QUOTE=lissener]

This is a real world situation, with real world people. They were there, they say it was racism.
[/quote]

Yup. And I agree with them. Have from my very first reply in this thread. I cannot think of any plausible non-racial interpretation of what the shopper is reported to have said. I’ve repeated that statement 2-3 times here.

Did you somehow overlook this?

[QUOTE=lissener]
All you’re doing is strapping on some angel wings and doing a tapdance on the head of a pin: you’re just debating this in the abstract, as an academic exercise. Your entire position is “Anything is possible; anything can be debated into the ground until everyone involved just wants to shoot themselves to stop the sound of my voice.”
[/quote]

No. That’s not what I’m doing. Actually, I came in the thread fairly late. In my reply, I (i) agreed with the OP’s interpretation of the shopper’s comment (see above); and (ii) commented that the serious accusation of racism against Kalhoun (veiled though it might have been) did not seem justified by what she had said in this thread. See? Two different issues! It’s possible to think that the shopper is a racist without concluding that Kalhoun is!

(Don’t worry, I’ll give you the Cliff’s Notes version below.)

[QUOTE=lissener]
That makes you a boor and an asshole. If your motivation is not drily academic–i.e., if you’re not just a boor and an asshole–and you have some personal reason for sympathizing more with the racist than with the teenage girl whose been hated upon, then you’re more than likely a racist, boorish asshole.

[/QUOTE]

The logic, it burns!

Once again (although I despair of ever helping you grasp this point), nothing that I’ve said in this thread could even remotely be construed as supporting, agreeing with, excusing or sympathizing with the racist shopper who “hated upon” the teenage girl. You and I are in agreement when we conclude that the shopper was a racist and bad to the poor teenage girl. Maybe you have a vision problem? Should I say it again in a larger font?

That doesn’t prove that Kalhoun, who was not the Evil Shopper, is a racist.

And it certainly doesn’t prove that those who are unconvinced that Kalhoun is a racist (such as me, or for that matter Alice) are, as a result of that heretical view, racists themselves. (or “boors” or worst of all “drily academic”)

There’s no Transitive Property of Racism.

Let’s try an analogy, possibly hypothetical. You’re an asshole. I conclude that you’re an asshole, based on the evidence of your posts in this thread, and say so in a new thread. Another poster (let’s call him Poster Two) replies "You know, I’m not convinced that Random’s conclusion is correct. It’s just possible that, despite appearances, Lissener isn’t an asshole. Maybe there’s another explantion. Possibly, he’s stupid, instead. Or maybe he’s only 13, and doesn’t have the life experience to realize that opinions can differ without one side having evil motives. "

But I’m not buying it. I’m still convinced that you’re an asshole. (And, given the premise of this analogy, I’m right.) I am, accordingly, in disagreement with Poster Two. And I’m right, and he’s wrong. Must I therefore conclude that Poster Two is also an asshole, because he isn’t convinced that you are one?

Of course not. Even though his conclusion differs, and his logic is flawed, there are many, many other explanations for Poster Two’s opinion. He might be stupid, or unfamiliar with logical thinking, or be lacking in the life experience that would allow him to spot you as an asshole. So, even though you are an asshole, it does not logically follow that Poster Two is an asshole.

And, of course if Poster Three randomly wanders in, and says "You know, it does not logically follow that Kalh ooops, sorry, Poster Two is an asshole, even though it’s obvious that Lissener is indeed, indisputably an asshole. that doesn’t automatically make Poster Three an asshole, either.

Got it, or do you need the Cliff’s Notes version?

120

[QUOTE=Biggirl]
I did a very clear job of showing what I thought was the problem. It was you who put the “well maybe it * wasn’t* racism” interpretation on the OP. And I am not slipping insults under the door. Again, I am being quite clear on who and what I am insulting. You seem very clear on that aspect of my posts.

Just in case-- the naive. Those who want to look at my original post and spin it in such a way that it seems as if both me and my daughter are being oversensitive-- those are the posters with whom I am taking exception.
[/QUOTE]

FWIW, when I read the OP I immediately thought the comments were racist and at first I didn’t understand how it could be considered otherwise but after reading the other posts I can see how others could have seen the first post as not being racist. Of course, I do like to give the benefit of the doubt.

I’ve also worked customer service my whole working life and have never been called “you people.” I have seen a coworker say “all those people look alike to me” when talking about hispanics but since I’m hispanic, I don’t think she was right.

I think I might have an idea whats going on here. Well, a couple of things.

I was reading a book by Alan Dershowitz called Chutzpah and while it was discussing the Jewish perspective one thing really hit me. He was talking about his fathers generation, his generation and his son’s generation.

His fathers generation was the “don’t make trouble” generation and they’d see racism and try to ignore it because by “making trouble” they would make things worse for themselves.

His generation ( which is closer to mine but I’m not quite that old ) is the one which says “let’s condemn the important stuff but let’s not go overboard” because we can’t change the entire world at once and we need to pick our battles. It’s a long war.

His son’s generation is one which says “forget it. We’re not having any tolerance for any racism, period. It’s harmful and it’s past it’s time and we need to vigorously fight it every time we see it.”

This is admirable but we just had a thread about how harmful the very term racist comes off to white people. Is it any wonder that when that term is casually tossed out there it is counterproductive? This is my generation talking here.

I’m not talking the OP but the response from those looking for a reasonable alternative, even though it’s one I admit is extremely tenuous. You can’t convince someone they’re something they’re not simply by slinging a term at them.

You may cause them to reevaluate their position but it’s just as likely if not more that they’ll consider you a radical and entrench themselves even more in their own views. Of course, that’s just my opinion.

I’ll admit that my perception is not the norm. I can’t convince anyone of my race. Really. I was once laughed at in a diversity meeting by my boss, her boss and the diversity guy because he asked who was hispanic and I raised my hand. I tried to tell them it was true but they all still thought I was joking.

I’ve also lived with families of various races in my life and moved through several cultures with ease. I’ve seen an awful lot of people make offhand remarks against other races then go out of their way to do great things for these other races.

People often say what they don’t mean. They just do. People vent. A whole lot of it is inappropriate like the Richards deal and the OP and, I guess, none of it is acceptable. Still, from my perspective if we start writing off people of every race who says stupid things, we’ll have a very, very small group left after it’s all over with and I’m not so sure that’s an answer I’m ok with.

So, I’ll stick with the Dershowitz generation. I’ll give the benefit of the doubt to the small stuff and maybe point out that it’s not a good way to think and I’ll fight side by side with the oppressed in the larger stuff. If that’s being a racial apologist then so be it. At least I’m going to apologize equally with no regard to any particular race.

Well, this started out as a reply and turned into a soliloquy and a rambling one at that. That’s what I get trying to type a reply during a lunch break. I’m not deleting it though. It might provoke some thought and I may learn something from that. :slight_smile: