This is going to far! Fucking bullshit!

Here’s the problem, Kyomara. It was 26 people on an orange crate commuter plane, not 300. Here’s the other problem – when incidents like this have happened in the past, the same course of action was not followed.

Less than one week after the very well publicized incident this past summer with the two extraordinarily drunken America West pilots, a woman on another of the airline’s flights made a similar joking inquiry as to the sobriety of her plane’s cockpit crew. (She motioned to the cockpit upon boarding and asked the flight attendant “Are they sober up there?”)

She was yanked off of the plane, but ended up not being ticketed or charged. Her original flight left with all passengers onboard, and she ended up on another flight on another airline later that day. Shortly thereafter, America West puckered up and kissed her butt with an apology made live on the Today Show stating that it was unnecessary and overreactive for them to have yanked her off the plane.

There is NO uniform standard as to how to treat a passenger who makes an inquiry as to the ability of the pilots. It is determined on a case by case, airline by airline, airport by airport, flight crew by flight crew basis. If someone at Sea Harbor says “Hey, he’d better not be drunk!” as a joke and ends up being threatened with a felony charge, then that’s the same consequence which ought to apply to someone who says something similar at SeaTac or Lambert or JFK or Dulles. But it isn’t. There’s no consistency.

The only thing that does happen with some consistency is the way that the airlines and airports spin these events, always painting the passenger in question as “unruly” or having “caused a disruption” with their comment, which automagically makes them a security risk. Reality and common sense says that this is completely false: intoxicated flight crews are a security risk, a passenger who asks – jokingly or seriously – about the flight crews’ sobriety may cause a disruption, but they haven’t threatened security even if they do trigger a chain of (over)reactionary events which scuttle the scheduled flight plan or timing.

The frightening thing now is that simply asking a question – whether that question is a joke, a request for clarification of an issue or order, or an inquiry into flight safety – immediately puts airport and airline personnel into a very frightening, defensive mode. Trying to understand anything beyond the small bit of information that you’re given or to illicit data about anything that we the flying public are just supposed to take on faith and keep our mouths shut about when we’re human airline freight, brands a person as suspicious and potentially dangerous. From the moment we drive onto airport property we are expected to be devoid of intellectual curiosity, individuality and most horrifically, autonomy. Any deviation from that can (and far too often does) completely destroy our travel plans and lead to ticketing, criminal charges and even jail time or threats thereof all in the name of this ever-trumpeted but completely hollow security which is not now, has never been and seemingly never will be able to truly secure anyone from the acts of zealots or madmen with death wishes.

It doesn’t seem to matter to the airlines or the TSA or FAA how many people are yanked off of airplanes because of non-threatening comments or their ethnicity, how many women are manhandled or pregnant women reduced to tears. They’re in “Security World” they have their orders and that’s that. But they’re not machines, we’re not machines and therefore, that isn’t that. These incidents do not occur in a vacuum, and when dealing with applying regulations to human behaviour, a little bit of human intellect ought to be engaged. In far too many cases, like this one, that step never happens. People act, they don’t think. They parrot line and verse from procedural manuals without ever stopping to determine whether or not the act to which they are responding actually corresponds with the line and verse at all.

One day someone with a brain will realize something. No one with a plan is going to do anything – complain, ask questions, act in any way “confrontational” – which might bring any added attention to them or derail their intentions. If someone wants to go and hijack another plane and fly it into another building or a nuclear plant or whatever, they’re not going to get upset when their shoes are x-rayed or hoot out a dumb question before the flight takes off. They’re going to be head down, follow orders, go with the flow. This whole “oh, you’re disruptive, you’re a danger” thing is patently ridiculous from the standpoint of assuring security from terrorism or dangerous on-board incidents.

My sister works for a major airline. I first flew when I was three years old. I’ve been around the world. I love Europe and I want to go back to Asia and Africa and I want to get to Australia one of these days. But I won’t fly in these circumstances, and I know that I’m not alone. The atmosphere of pervading fear and lack of integrity in the entire process is just more than my nerves can take. United and USAirways are bankrupt, American, America West, Delta and Continental are all precariously positioned to say the very least. The air industry as a whole has failed to properly manage assets (a problem which started long before 9/11) and has always had to rely upon two things to make it: government financial assistance (in the form of handouts, forbearances, loans and favorable regulations) and customer goodwill. They haven’t been getting the former and they are rapidly throwing away the latter.

The question remains: how much more are we supposed to take? Some of us simply cannot not fly. So what are we supposed to do?

The sheeple response of “lay down and take it, it’s for your own good” just isn’t good enough anymore. The FAA does not take complaints seriously. The TSA hides many of its actions and procedures behind a veil of secrecy and an all-powerful firt of authority. When complaints escalate to any official level, there are serious and significant signs pointing to collusion and destruction of evidence by airports and airlines in order to turn every incident into a “he said/we said” situation with limited ability for either side to corrobate their claims, leading to stalemate and stasis.

Something has to give – more people have to get fed up. More people have to speak up. But leaving things as they are cannot be an option.

His right to ask is not and was not protected. He piped up with his comment, he says as a joke, but what if he’d bubbled up out of his seaat and exclaimed something about the drunk pilot out of shock or surprise because he saw the pilot stumble when no one else did? Do you think that he would’ve been permitted to stay on the flight? Clearly not. He was pulled from the plane and detained for questioning, they would’ve done the same if his comment had been a legit complaint. And that in and of itself is a punishment. That’s to say nothing of the inconvenience and the re-routing, rescheduling and so on which automatically follows being yanked offboard. Nothing, and I mean absolutely nothing was protected.

OK, I’m confused. Were FAA regs followed or not?

Amazingly well put tlw, best post I’ve read in days. I especially like this part:

You’re exactly right. Air travel is in dire straits and something most definately has to change.

Beyond just the air industry though I sincerely hope that this man’s case goes to court and the airline, the flight crew, and possibly the FAA are sternly reprimanded.

Those rules that dictated a certain course of action were intended to make aircrew accountable when questions were asked.

Why were those put there ? Becasue in the past others noticed things and said nothing, resulting in two drunk pilots eventuallly being brought to book, for something that had been clearly part of flight crew culture for some time, those pilots were just the worst examples.

So now the rules are, if anyone, including a passenger, asks some sort of question regarding safety, then that question must be taken seriously.

Looks to me like the way airlines are applying the rule has turned the issue right back round to where it started, how many passengers would dare to make even legitimate comments ?

So now the passengers know that raisning any safety related complaint is ‘not a good idea’, they have been shown to know little, that they should know their place, and if they try to get out of the box it will be all the worse for them.

This is an improvement to air safety, when passengers now fear making comments ?

Let’s get a few things straight, shall we?

  1. You do not have any rights when you board an airplane. Really. After decades of the public demanding “protection” the government has decided that the easiest way to 'protect" everyone is to treat them as criminals on lockdown. You are “self-loading cargo”. That’s it. You are marched through metal detectors, asked to strip partially or totally, your dignity is of no concern, and women are there to allow a quick feel. If you don’t like it you are treated as any prisoner - you are restrained and put in solitary.

  2. The FAA does not joke. Doesn’t know the meaning of the word and doesn’t care to.

  3. No, you are not “entitled to say any fucking thing [you] want, to any fucktard pilot, at any fucking time and any fucking place.” If you comment upon his/her ancestory or sexual habits you are, at the very least, providing a distraction to those in charge of the airplane. If you cause an actual disruption or uprising among the passengers you may, in fact, be generating a hazard. A pilot has considerably more discretion that most people realize once the airplane is underway.

Of course, off the airplane - in a terminal, say - the pilot is much more an ordinary citizen. But given the charged atmosphere in an airport these days, and your total lack of rights within the system, the security officers standing about may choose to slap in restraints and put you in solitary, just like any other misbehaving prisoner. If you’re really lucky, security might decide to not take sides and slap you BOTH into restraints and put the pair of you in solitary (pilots have no rights off the airplane, either). This will, of course, seriously delay the flight the pilot(s) involved were supposed to be on.

  1. The FAA, as a government agency, has a zero-tolerance drug and alcohol policy. In other words, the pilots weren’t “pussies”, they were protecting their asses. If they had passed the comment off as a joke and the FAA had later heard about it possible consequences are severe. In such a case, it is up to them to prove innocence, not the government to prove guilt. If they can’t defnitively prove they were sober they would be presumed drunk. They would lose their jobs, their licenses, and would probably hope for court-mandated alcohol counseling instead of the possible felony charges they could wind up with. Pilots can be drug/alcohol tested at any time.

Mind you, they weren’t tested just for alcohol - they’d be tested for everything. A dose of Sudafed taken too close to the departure time would be met with the same fierceness as a BAC of .40 or a positive for heroin.

  1. An accusation of crew impairment is considered just as serious as a bomb threat. We all know you don’t joke about bombs at airports, right? Good. Now we know you don’t joke about impaired pilots.

  2. The FAA attitude is that you should be glad to risk prosecution in the name of safety. Crazy, yes, but we are talking “national security” here. Standing up and saying “there’s three inches of ice on the wings and the co-pilot puking in the toilet reeks of gin” will get you hauled off the plane and slapped into restraints, solitary, etc. but as a citizen you’re still expected to do your duty and put up with arrest for the greater good. Of course, if they take off anyway and crash you’ll be prosecuted because you “knew” in advance there was something wrong and didn’t do enough or contact the proper authority. Who would be the “proper authority”? Damn if I know.

  3. OK, what the hell can we do about it? You have the following choices:

a) Don’t fly
b) Write your Congress critters
c) Get a pilot’s license and do your own flying

Actually, “c” is probably least attractive - you would then be subject to the FAA, lose your medical privacy, and your address would be published in a publicly accessible directory, thereby greatly increasing your junk mail quota. You would still get to “enjoy” airport security should you be foolish enough to land where there is “scheduled passenger service”. Not to mention that, if you DO fly commercial after you get your license the mere fact you are a pilot is now suspicious. Yes, boys and girls, it is almost guaranteed that a pilot flying as a passenger will be “randomly selected” for extra-special super-duper strip-tease search treatment. There are other potential consequences as well, but why bore you?

  1. Were the FAA regs followed? Yes. Anytime there is a suspicion of chemical impairment of a flight crew everyone is to be shuffled off and drug tested. Someone voiced a suspicion (remember, the FAA has no sense of humor) so in this case the regs were followed to the letter. How strictly such regs are followed varies with the Flight Standards District Office or “FSDO” and the quality of the airlines’ lawyers. A commuter airline flying out of a dinky regional airport is not going to have the big-money super-lawyers, so they will, in a practical sense, have much less wriggle-room than a large, politically connected airline at a major hub (like American at O’Hare, for instance).

Yes, it sucks.

We are so screwed. Any terrorist organization with the slightest bit of ingenuity could use the FAA regulations to destroy the airline industry, thus further crippling our economy. All they have to do is send hundreds of volunteers to airports with tickets, and tell them to ask if the pilot is drunk right before they take their seats. They could shut down airports, bankrupt airlines, put thousands of people out of work, and sour people on the experience of flying forever. I weep for the future.

Which is a wholly and completely unacceptable concept in a free nation.

Or it ought to be, even though it isn’t exactly true.

But to the extent that it is true, that anyone can even fathom such an idea without immediately following it with reams of unbridled outrage is a more horrifying turn of events than the labyrinth of multi-jurisdictional regulation making which has brought it to pass.

WTF?!?

Customer freely enters into a transaction with a non-government-owned buisness for a specific service. The service this buisness offers puts them at the risk of serious financial liablity should something go wrong, so the buisness establishes rules that must be obeyed by the customer partakes of said service.

But getting back to the issue of this gentleman’s right to say “Have you been drinking?” I would ask people to keep in mind there are two seperate events here.

The first is a question of pilot sobriety triggering a delay in a flight while the initial pilot and co-pilot go off for testing and a new pilot and co-pilot were rounded up. This was due to the regulations the flight crew are expected to follow.

The second is a man’s arrest by the local sheriff for disorderly conduct for making a joke that ends up almost ruining the travel plans of a planeload of his fellow passengers. Now unless that local sheriff has an unheathly fixation over Mike Wallace and has had a lifelong ambition to be grilled on 60 Minutes, I feel fairly sure that the disorderly conduct charges would have been dropped if the pilots’ tests had come back with any alcohol in their system.

Is someone’s right to joke about pilot sobriety being restricted here? Yes, because the airlines don’t want to get into a “boy who cried wolf” situation. Is a person’s right to legitimately question pilot sobriety being restricted? The only way we’d know that is if there were a pasenger who spoke up, the pilots got off to be tested and they did test positive, and that passenger still gets slapped with a disorderly conduct charge.

And you know what else? This whole damn debate reminds me of a comedy routine called “Buddy” (I think it was one of David Spade’s). It’s actually about train travel and not plane travel, but the punchline still applies here:

“Damn, Hommie! We shouda taken da Bus.”

You lost me, tlw . Boarding a plane is a completely voluntary action on your part, so why you think you should or do have any “rights” (whatever the hell that means) on an airplane is beyond me. Any fool can see that certain regulations–which, by definition, will infringe on your “rights”-- are necessary for passenger safety and security; i.e., wear your seatbelt on take-off and landing, no knives, guns, or other weapons, etc., no drinking by the pilots. If you don’t like the rules, take the fucking bus.

As for the OP, I think you’d have to be a goddamned moron to crack a joke in an airport or on a plane that in any way, shape, or form that can even remotely be considered a threat to passenger safety. Did he say he thought the pilots had been drinking? No. But in this day and age the airline isn’t going to take a chance and it doesn’t sound like they had a choice but to have the crew tested. As Broomstick said, the FAA doesn’t joke, it doesn’t know the meaning of the word, and doesn’t care to.

SC_Wolf, that was Adam Sandler (wth David Spade, and one of the Wayans as well).

Aside from the obvious guns/bombs/knives/terorism, are there any other topics that are zero-tolerance? Wouldn’t it behoove the airlines to make the public aware of these regulations?

Exactly.

“What’s that Ms. Flight Attendant? I can’t use a rubber stamp that says ‘We are all going to die in a firey plane crash’ to print notes to my fellow passengers on this notepad? But that means gasp my First Amendment Bill of Rights freedom of press is being taken away! You SHALL be hearing from my lawyer, and I warn you, he’s quite good on Constitutional law.”

Funny, I thought everyone KNEW you don’t joke about life or death matters when at the airport or on an airplane. Didn’t you get tha memo?

IANAFAAB (I am not an FAA Buearucrat) but here’s a short list of what not to joke about, in case it isn’t obvious:

Having/seeing another passenger with an implement of violence (bomb/gun/knife/nailfile)

Pilot imparement

Smelling electrical smoke

Having a dire medical conditon such as a heart attack

Getting out and walking the rest of the way because you feel the service is lousy.

Seeing gremlins on the wings (even if you are Bill Shatner)

The business may not be government owned but the rules come down from the government. The FAA is an agency of the government and when it rules upon infringing speech, it violates the constitution.
There are, of course, exceptions to this. Let’s take the “fire” in an open theatre example. Shouting out “I hope there’s no fire in this theatre,” is NOT prohibited. You’d get some strange looks from people and annoy many a viewers’ experience for disrupting the movie, but it is not against the law to do.
Likewise, if the passenger had shouted out “My god! The pilot’s drunk” I would so completely be with you on your side of the argument. That comment would truly be a safety risk.

But that’s what we’re talking about: an issue of safety. No one is being protected by this regulation. I bow to tlw and the explanation given in that post which stated the matter much better than I could.

If it turns out that it was solely the pilot’s decision to throw him off, I will accept it. The pilots would be stupid, but I’d accept it. If it turns out to be the airline’s decision, I would accept it. Again, the rules would be stupid, but I have my choice of other airlines to give my business to.

But if it’s the FAA, it goes beyond stupid. I continue to assert that these regulations are unconstitutional. No, we do not give up all our rights when we enter an aircraft. We do not. Must I shout this out? WE DO NOT GIVE UP ALL OUR RIGHTS DAMNIT!
If you believe that we do (and I fucking swear upon high holy mountaintops this is the real deal and not some overblown cliche) the terrorists have already won.

I used to wonder how on earth free societies could willingly fall under the control of totalitarian regimes.

I don’t wonder so much any more.
I wish I still did. :frowning:

My friend Chris ran into a similar situation last year. He, his father, and his son were on their way up to Canada for a fishing trip. As they boarded the plane, Chris’ father asked if the pilots had taken a blood alcohol test. The answer was “no”, and the plane had to sit on the tarmac for two hours while a BAC test was brought out to the plane so the pilots could be tested. Of course, the crew was completely happy to let everyone on the plane know that it was Chris and his family holding up the flight. Needless to say, my friends weren’t very popular.

After the test was completed, and the negative results were announced to the crew, my friends were kicked off the plane.

Pardon me? They were concerned about their personal safety, had just recently read about drunken pilots, and for this they were ostracized and kicked off the plane?

Wouldn’t it be easier to just require the pilots to take a BAC test before each flight? I mean, these are the people responsible for the safety of multiple hundreds of people’s lives, and you’re not doing your absolute best to ensure that these people aren’t intoxicated? And when someone voices a concern, you blame THEM?

No, you don’t give up all your rights. The Federal government can’t suddenly quater troops in your residence the minute you set foot on the plane, even though it’s clear you’re going off on a vacation and aren’t going to be using your house for the next two weeks.

Here are the rights you are “giving up” when you fly:

The right to bear arms.

Protection from being searched merely because the government says you have to be searched.

The right to free speech in so far as it pertains to making jokes about life threatnening situations.

The right do do as you see fit with your own personal property in specific cases that the Government claims such use will interfere with the safe operation of the aircraft (e.g. no cellphone use during specific times during the flight)

ALL OF THESE WERE IN PLACE LONG BEFORE 9/11. TERRORISTS DO NOT FUCKING HAVE ANYTHING TO DO WITH IT.

Now in the case of Ligthnin’s friend Chris and his father, if they had a legitimate concern that the pilots were drunk then they shouldn’t have been kicked off for voicing that concern, I agree. However, what may seem like a legitimate concern to some may come across a “one bad apple spoils the barrel” logic being applied to all pilots by a passenger who keeps up with the news.

Back in July I flew out of London Heathrow on a British Airways flight. As I boarded I was given a British newspaper. O took my seat and started reading and a few pages into it was a piece of news about a female British Airways flight attendant who, on some flight, got very drunk and started insulting passengers. She told a mother with a young kid to fuck off and started romping around the plane on all fours and telling people to kiss her ass. The news finished by saying BA were “investigating the incident”.

Anyway, I pointed this news out to the flight attendant and told her I would be very amused if she would care to do the same act for me. We had a hearty laugh over it. I asked her why they would hand passengers a newspaper with that kind of news about their airline. What kind of reassurance was that?

Now I am gled I was on a British carrier and not on a US carrier. Who knows what might have happened to me were I fllying Delta United Southwest Infamous airlines. Maybe they would have handed me to Some third world country for further interrogation and torture.

The idiocy of the story linked in the Op is stunning. And appalling.

Anybody willing to give the pilots the same rights in regards to the passengers?