This is going to far! Fucking bullshit!

Can there not be a middle ground between asking questions and making accusations? “The pilots get tested for drugs/alcohol, right?” seems like a valid question for a concerned or anxious passenger to ask. “Whoa, that pilot seems a little wobbly - must be drunk, eh?” does not. However, it seems that both approaches are gonna get you in big trouble.

I think it all comes down to a question of intent, even if a question is asked jokingly (and, really, to some people, phrasing a question as a mild joke often seems less offensive than asking outright - “hope you’re not drunk, ha ha” versus “you’re not drunk, are you?”).

I think, in the case of truly concerned passengers who innocently ask about or make comments about pilot drinking, especially since I doubt most passengers have a clue that you can be thrown off a flight or arrested for asking about/making comments about pilot drinking, that a simple explanation of guidelines/policies regarding alcohol testing would be a much better alternative, and much more reassuring, than the threat of punishment for voicing concerns.

On the other hand, if a passenger makes any hint (whether joking or serious) that a pilot has, in fact, been drinking, they should be advised that, while they may force the issue by having the pilots tested, there will be dire consequences should the tests turn out negative.

I may not be thinking this through, but it seems that the airline staff, acting in an intermediary position and either offering policy information or questioning the passenger’s remarks further, could offer a lot of reassurance to nervous passengers, while at the same time taking the necessary actions against asshole passengers who are just “causing trouble.”

It seems a lot more fair than this “zero tolerance” policy that punishes the truly nervous and curious right along with the real troublemakers.

And just to add - how are passengers even supposed to know they can’t ask these kinds of questions? I would never, ever, ever have thought that this would be considered “interfering with a flight” or whatever the rule is. It’s not like it’s joking about carrying a bomb, ferchrissakes, it’s asking a legitimate (IMO) question about whether, in fact, there are steps in place to ensure that pilots are clean and sober.

I feel like an idiot for falling for GusNSpot’s TROLL like behavior but he makes it so easy to bust on. So here is more food for the troll.

Seems like it is you that have not read the thread! I don’t claim to speak for everyone here. I just noted that most here do not agree with you.

101 posts
66 for the OP
21 disagree and of the 21, 15 are by you and only two other posters.
8 neutral.
and 6 unknown.

Get it?

I didn’t see that the OP said anything about the pilots or airlines being the ones who made the rules. He said the situation was ridiculous–AND, IMO, IT IS–regardless of where on the authority chain it is created.

…and you get fined and threatened with 20 years in prison.

Posted by Kyomara: “What proof is the airline going to provide to concerned passengers?”

Well, how about airline security staff come aboard and give them breathalizer tests? That would only take a few minutes. This is, of course, if the guy said he was joking. If the guy said ‘no, seriously, I think this guy has been drinking’ then I agree that they should do more serious stuff to test the pilots and stuff.

What the HELL are you talking about? Honestly I don’t know what the fuck you are talking about. I really don’t. Not that this surprises me, as it’s the case quite often when reading your posts.

…then in what way are you “one of the pilots that has had to put up with people like you”?

Are you people really surprised at this? I sincerely hope not. You are, at least in part, the same people who, among other things, are in favor of turning in parents for so much as “suspected” child abuse, no?

The comment that poor guy made to the pilot is something I might have said. It suits my personality to be a smart-ass, especially when nervous (flying makes me nervous). A few years ago, shortly after ValueJet and Flight 80

Oooooookay…I done hit the submit button by accident. Oh well, on with the story. Shortly after ValueJet and Flight 800, I was on a plane about to take off. I have always been nervous about flying, even before all the shit that’s coming down nowadays.

So, to relieve my anxiety, I made all kinds of tasteless plane crash jokes to my companion (gallows humor), going on about flaming wreckage, hijackings, you name it. Real loud. I know everyone around could hear me, but they pretended not to. Well, keeping a sense of humor helped me; that was the important thing. And anyone with half a brain knew my comments for what they were.

I can just imagine what would happen nowadays if I (or anyone) dared to be so brazen. 20 years of federal prison, anyone? For a joke? The sad part is that these types of reactions are purely punitive. Teach the guy a lesson. Make an example out of him. Down deep we all know that he is not really a danger for razzing the pilot a little bit. If he were, would he draw attention to himself in that manner? The real terrorists slipped through all these safety precautions, no?

I think humans are basically sadistic. Not the ones who make inappropriate jokes or screw up in whatever way, but the ones who use these poor saps to act out their own sadistic urges to punish someone, camouflaged as “good citizenship”.

He’s obviously posting with his tongue safely stowed in his overhead cheek, Guns, but his point is valid. The FAA regulation can be construed a number of ways. The rule is too broad in scope, and that’s the exact reason laws get overturned in the Supreme Court.

I’m really glad the passenger didnt say to the pilot “You’ve had flight training, right?” because if he had, the passengers would have had to wait until the pilot was fully re-tested for certification.

Hmmm. What if the passenger had made a SERIOUS accusation that the pilot had been drinking…would he have been fined? If so, then the message is “If you suspect the pilot of drinking, keep it to yourself.” I cant imagine there would be a fine for a sincere accusation.

Therefore, the fine itself implies that the authorities knew the passenger was joking. Hence, the subsequent breathalyzer and inconvenience to the other passengers make no sense.

ROFL Rogg! (re certification)

I would hope there would be no fine… but I really wonder in this day/age/thing.

Dear Opal. You seem to have missed the part about ( Corporate flying, Part - 135 flying, just having people go up with you as a private pilot, charter flying and so on.)

I know you do not understand me. :: shrug :: I don’t understand you either but I don’t get quite as personal with you as you do me. :::shrug :::

I dis-agree with the law as do most.
I dis agree with everyone’s willingness to hammer on the pilots with the (but my life is in their hands…) excuse / rationalization. You are doing the same thing every time you drive a car ( being the possible instigator of others deaths) and I wonder how many of you all would be willing to pass a test to be allowed to drive in public every time you got in the car? Want one of those breath tests to be mandatory in all cars? To me, I see the asking for different treatment for you and for pilots as wrong. If you make an accusation, be right or you SHOULD understand that you are liable for the accusation. (see you in court) the way it works in the rest of the world. Or is it possible if I stop you at a corner and ask for a sobriety test or accuse you of being drunk, that you will not attempt to take me to court at the least?
Common sense about who is joking. Jeez, how do you recommend that be applied, with common sense? Bawahahahah
If I was with Suspenderzzz when he acted like that, I would really really ask him to quit or go on another flight because he would be really upsetting me as a passenger. I don’t feel that having fear gives a right to abuse everyone else on the plane. Take a car…:: sheesh :::

The FAA has never been real reasonable and it will take a lot of hard work to get them to change. Fussing about will not work. You have to do something. That is hard to accomplish. The FAA is like the IRS, the pilots are guilty until they prove they are innocent and most folks seem to want to jump on them with no regard for due process.

So, I ask, why ask that you have more RIGHTS than the pilots? If you can demand a sobriety test, can they not do the same? A drunk passenger is a liability on any flight and the pilots and FA’s do not need the distractions.
The same applies to those who use their attitude to be nasty and mean and cry, “I was only joking!” every time they get called on it. I have no truck with those kinds of people. I have seen what they can do and I won’t let them cause my death if I can help it. So, yes, I have seen the request for a soda be a very bad thing on an flight. And I think the guy who says that here is the kind of person who does that stuff. But it looks good to those here, Hmmmmmm…

You , Opal seem to be advocating that it is alright to ask about a pilots qualifications ( see post just above) when you board the plane. You just hope that no matter the harm you cause the pilot, that you will not be held accountable for it. Why do you get out of being responsible? Remember that the FAA does not care… Do you care if someone took away you husbands ability to work with just a joke question? A pilot getting too many comments and he can get a bad reputation. (and it is just unlucky that he got all the jokers…) The airline will toss him and that is okay for the jokers to do? You all seem to not care. Everybody with any sense knows you don’t do that to people or in an airport or on a plane but there are those… . It has been in all the news, and still, folks like you think it is okay to cause trouble just to express your humor?

IMO, most pilots show remarkable restraint in NOT throwing more people off the flights. YMMV :smack:

Rogg and Opal and others… may I have a word with you please?

First - no, I am not an airline pilot. I am not a corporate pilot. I am a private pilot allowed to carry as many passengers in my airplane as that airplane has seats (provided I don’t exceed the maximum legal take-off weight). I do frequently carry passengers, purely out of my own generosity and to share my joy in flying.

Even on my level, disruptive passengers can pose a danger.

No, it’s not the occassional queasy stomach or eating questionable food at distant greasy spoons, either.

The average person just doesn’t have the knowledge base to know what is and isn’t a hazard in aviation. It’s purely ignorance, which is no fault of yours - Aviation 101 just isn’t covered in the public schools.

Just as horse people know there’s a certain hazard to walking behind an equine, pilots know there is a certain hazard to wandering around airplanes in an oblivious manner. Aside from the dangers of props (which can cause significant injury if you walk into one even if it’s not moving - I know one gent who had to have nose sewed back on after such an “oops”) there are all sorts of atennaes poking out, which can cost you an eye, or be jostled loose. There was that time I walked under a fuel vent and got a faceful of gasoline. And numerous times folks have preflighted an airplane and pulled crap out of the hinges and engine cowling (Hint: if you’re at a fly-in empty pop and beer cans go in the trash, not the rudder assembly). The airlines solve this by use of those extendable boarding walkways which coveniently funnel passengers into the plane without exposing either the passengers or the machine to each other. If you do go outside and use a ladder to board there are people doing crowd control duty. Because an airplane can be dangerous even on the ground, and people can be stupid, sloppy idiots.

Try to get up and walk when the seat belt light is on - dudes, it’s on for a reason. Listen to the damn safety briefing - it could save your life. Don’t overstuff the overhead bins - you hit turbulence that shit could go flying. Having a 50lb suitcase crash onto your head will really ruin your day. Put the damn tray up and your laptop away - if the pilot has to abort a landing or make a sudden manuver just after take off, or during landing, you could go facefirst into that tray - I guarantee it will smart like the dickens - and your precious laptop go flying down the aisle. So sorry if this is all so inconvenient to everyone, but it really is for your safety. Which is what you want, yes?

Being herded into an aluminum tube - no matter how plushly upholsterd - and unable to leave for extended periods of time is an unnatural environment. The fact that only a very short distance through remarkably thin metal and plastic is an extremely hostile environment does not help. Airlines distract people with food, drink, music… I do it by saying “Oooo! Lookit the pretty lake over there!” A certain percentage of the population goes into hair-trigger mode in this environment and the most amazingly small things can set them off.

Having been on an airliner when a good, thumping panic has started, I can say you do NOT want to be on board when the screaming starts.

To YOU it may be a joke. To the flying-phobic, or the drunken passenger two rows back, it may be the final straw that flips them into disruptive acts. Drunken, disruptive, enraged and crazy passengers have done far more damage in the past 10 years than all the drunk pilots. If I had a say in anything, there would be NO alcohol on ANY airplane, and none sold at airports, either. Aside from bored people drinking too much, the lower air pressure in the airplane usually means the alcohol affects the passengers much more strongly than at sea level, and the dry air aboard hastens dehydration, which also can intensify the effects of alcohol. Add a little fear into the mix it’s a wonder we don’t have riots aloft.

If you, personally, want to help contribute to the safety of your flight here’s what you do:

  1. follow the rules the airlines give you about baggage, especially carry-ons.

  2. arrive sober and stay that way

  3. don’t yell at anybody

  4. don’t make jokes about baggage, bombs, pilots, airlines, flight attendants, pocket knives, toothpicks or anything else. If you tend to do this when nervous or scared (and I fall into that category myself) this is yet another reason to remain sober - it helps your willpower.

  5. if you ARE scared, or if you do see something that bothers you or you don’t understand, tell someone, but do so as calmly and rationally as possible. Airline personnel do understand a lot of people are afraid of flying and want to reassure you, but if you start out by acting like an insane person - screaming, hollering, demanding - they may wind up afraid of you. Airline personnel DO have the right - nay, the responsibility - to remove disruptive and unrully passengers for the safety of those aboard. Having someone go berserk at 30,000 feet is a Bad Thing, since no one can escape from the little aluminum tube.

  6. obey the flight crew. Yes, they get drinks and food and perform many menial tasks for your comfort. They also really will drag your ass out of a burning airplane. If you ask for a soda and they say “I’m sorry, not right now” don’t give 'em grief. Their first responsibility is safety, followed by certain maintenance procedures, then your comfort. The fact they spend most of their time on your comfort only testifies to their efficiency in dealing with the first two.

  7. about the pilot’s authority - if there’s an emergency, he or she can do just about anything in order to deal with said emergency. When I was in flight training there was serious discussion on how to subdue an unruly passenger, including how to render someone larger and stronger than you unconcious should that be necessary. Talk all you want about your rights - the pilot has responsibilities. That pilot isn’t just thinking about him/herself, or the other passengers, there are also all those people on the ground a crashing airplane might fall on. If there is any question about safety it has to be dealt with. Sorry if that makes us look like a bunch of humorless assholes but there’s a reason flying is the safest mode of transportation available despite the hazards lurking just outside your pressurized, heated cabin, not to mention the tricky bit of hitting a planet gently on every landing.

  8. if you do get pulled from an airplane I’d advise you not offer any form of resistance. If it gets to the point you have an armed escort shut the fuck up and do what they tell you. The deck is already stacked against you, you are guilty until proved innocent, and anything other than abject cooperation at that point will only hurt you more. It ain’t right, it ain’t fair, it ain’t a lot of things… but it IS reality.

As I have said - I have been a recipent of FAA “hospitality” myself. I was held against my will for two hours. THEIR viewpoint was that, as a passenger (which is what they decided my legal status was on that flight), it’s much too dangerous for me to be wandering across an airport ramp by myself to get to alternate transportation. Well, I put up with it and got free donuts and coffee and could call my husband and tell him there was going to be a little delay. Meanwhile, in the next room, I could overhear the pilot in command having a Really Bad Day.

Yes the FAA can be a pack of heartless bastards. Most pilots I know would rather submit to an IRS audit than be the subject of an FAA investigation. And that is not a joke.

Here’s the deal: the pilot and you are really allies - you both want the airplane to take off and get to where it’s going safely and on time. The FAA doesn’t give a fuck about your flight, other than it generates the paperwork it’s supposed to, and not generate paperwork or publicity for the wrong reasons. If that means your ass gets arrested, an airplane gets unloaded, a couple hundred people are delayed 6 hours, and a sober flight crew gets drug tested… well, so fucking what? Probably the most fun they and the TSA guys had all week. So why are you screwing with your allies (the flight crew)?

Now, if the pilot really is drunk that’s a different story.

But the fact remains that making jokes about impaired flight personnel when boarding an airplane is, at best, in very poor taste. Yes, the FAA goes into overkill. I don’t like it, you don’t like it, you can thank Congress and the goddamned lawyers for that. But just like you don’t smoke and don’t carry a knife and don’t stand up when the seatbelt light is on - don’t make jokes about safety issues OK?

Drunk pilot trying to fly day after Christmas.

I just saw this on The Smoking Gun’s website. A joke about flying drunk is not really worth all this guy (from the OP) had to go through, especially when the possibility is there. Considering the timing, this could be used as part of a lawsuit.

Broomstick:

I understand. The events in the OP are still, well the title says it…

The events in the OP are much more likely to cause those dingbats that you mentioned to be set-off, than a passing comment by another passenger because the things that you mention that put those people on edge are happening more by the actions of the airport people than that comment.

BTW, I did not notice much pilot bashing here, it seems that the pilots were also victims.

The regulation isn’t a regulation, it’s a law, part of the U.S. Code. But it can’t really be construed a number of ways. The interference must come as a result of an assault or intimidation. It can’t just be interference by running the flight crew up and down with lots of requests. I’d argue tht it cannot be interference by making a stupid joke unless some court wishes to say that a joke of this nature rises to the level of intimidation – a stretch by the definition of the word and, TTBOMK, legal precedent.

Tell it to Todd Beamer. I would hope not to be dragged anywhere, and I would hope to be as bold as Beamer and friends if somebody tries to physically subdue me, if somebody thinks they have that right simply because they are in charge of an airplane.
I also do not concur with security agents seizing a GI Joe because he has a 2-inch plastic gun which somehow falls into the definition of confiscatable items. I would prefer that some intelligence, some discrimination, be brought to bear upon the situation. One step in that direction would be the ability to recognize a simple joke when you hear one.

Well, I never would make a joke that might hurt somebody, but…yeah, if an opportunity for a good safe quip presents itself, I’ll flip it right out, government anti-joke regulations be damned.

Broomstick: I disagree that the guy was disruptive. This seems to be an issue we can’t agree on, so we’ll have to agree to disagree.

Gus: uh… whatever. I’m not even gonna try to wade through what you wrote. Just a sentence or two of yoru incoherancy is hard enough.

Oh, geez, what’s all those laws about invoking Hitler or slavery and ending the thread? Gotta have one about Flight 93.

FIRST OF ALL - what was going on with Mr. Beamer et. al. was not a matter of a disruptive passenger but rather a hijacking in progress with life-or-death issues for all aboard. This is quite different than a disruptive passenger during normal business. By all means, if a bunch of “Muslim” terrorists hijack the plane you are on fight back for all you’re worth and be as disruptive as possible. But in that case the assigned pilots - the legal authority on that airplane were already subdued, so the passengers of Flight 93 were attempting to restore the proper order, not ursurp it.

SECOND - the person (legally, not by hijack) in charge of the airplane actually DOES have a legal authority to maintain order aboard the aircraft. In other words, if, hypothetically, you were aboard my airplane and became disruptive enough to endanger the flight and I had to beat you unconcious and bloody to get you to stop posing a danger to the continuation of the flight - yeah, I actually DO have the authority to do exactly that. I would probably have to defend my actions in front of the authorities, but provided I could convince them there was a real risk and my actions were necessary (for instance, you would not sit down and shut up, and I had reason to believe you’d lay hands on me or the controls during a critical manuver) then, guess what - I’m in the clear. And YOU will be under arrest and charged with assault. (You do have the right to bring civil charges and sue me - but in such a case - again, assuming I can justify my actions to the FAA and other authorities - no criminal charges will be brought against me, just you)

Personally, I try to avoid taking people who are disruptive off the ground. Nonetheless, I have had passengers fingering the controls and in one instance almost release the door (an aerobat has quick-release doors for rapid exit should you break your airplane. Pull a cord and the door falls off. The passenger was fascinated by that cord) Part of the problem is that the average non-aviator hasn’t a clue about what is a potentially serious disruption and what isn’t.

Should something horrific happen, and I either die abruptly or fall out of the airplane or something equally catastrophic occurs that leaves you alone in the cockpit - then YOU are in charge, with all the rights and responsibilities that involves. In which case - good luck, you’ll need it.

I fully agree with you that that is completely stupid. Wow - we agreed on something!

Here’s the rub - you don’t know what’s safe and what isn’t. Sorry, but it’s true. I can’t count the number of times a non-pilot passenger has continued to yak yak yak in my ear during a difficult landing even though I tell them “Please save your questions and don’t talk to me until we land and leave the runway - I need to concentrate all my attention on flying right now.” Pilots - they’re great, they KNOW when to shut the hell up. Non-pilots don’t - yak-yak-yak. I’m sorry if last night’s TV was so fucking fascinating, or you need to sneeze, or whatever - DON’T FUCKING DISTRACT ME, OK? And that’s my point - what to YOU is a funny joke may, in fact, be very disruptive to someone else. It may be the funniest fucking joke ever invented, and be completely and entirely unoffensive to anyone, but if you say it at the wrong time it could cause problems. You may, unintentionally, hurt someone with your joke.

So don’t joke about bombs, drugs, drink, or anything else that may, possibly, be a safety issue.